Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:14:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #519 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: RE: Reality (Jye nigma) 2. Re: Re: kihap question (Jye nigma) 3. Re: Re: Kincade - press.points/pain compliance (Jye nigma) 4. Kneecaps (Randall Sexton) 5. RE: Re: kihap question (Wallace, John) 6. Pinching, technique variety (jmchie@wideopenwest.com) 7. Pain Tolerance / Locks Not Working?? (FirstPe315@aol.com) 8. Tink...Tell Us How You Really Feel (Stovall, Craig) 9. Specialized Programs for the Middle Aged? (FirstPe315@aol.com) 10. Re: Tink...Tell Us How You Really Feel (Jye nigma) 11. Question about hapkido (Jye nigma) 12. RE: Re: kihap question (Jye nigma) 13. 11-13 Year Olds at the 2003 US Open (fwd) (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:12:31 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Reality To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Craig I understand what you are saying. For some reason you're thinking that this simple pinch is being said it's the complete answer to escaping a hold. I'm not stating that at all. I'm simply saying that this is one way you may be able to get out of it. Here's a scenario, you're at a bar minding your own business and a drunk man starts with you, and puts you in a hold....now you can take advantage of that fact that he's drunk and do some big time joint locks, or joint breaks. You can kill him, maim him, etc. Or you can do a quick little something that may take him by surprise and he may let go. The point is as a martial artist only a small percentage of martial arts has to do with actually fighting. As martial artist we SHOULD try to first and foremost defuse tense situations to prevent fighting....some times this means to send a message as simple as a pinch. But everyone in this group should know that when a true confrontation takes place that certain things may not work, or be suitable to use. Now I notice that you keep saying you prefer to use "proven" techniques, well something that has been proven has been tried in some type of trial. Now we have seen that several people in this group have tried this pinching thing and for them it has worked, so someone could say it is a proven method. Now you must understand that just because something is proven, different variables are responsible for the technique to be proven. For instance, an arm bar locks the arm and causes pain but like someone else stated, what if you're a petite woman against Andre the giant, who's high on coke? So the fact of the matter is sometimes even proven things have exceptions. It's proven that if someone gets shot in the head they will die right? well what about those who were shot in the head and lived? One last thing is I encourage people to do what ever works FOR THEM in a life or death situation, if you have to pinch kick, bite, rip, etc....do it all until you can escape. But just to let you know Craig you are right to a certain extent about adrenalin carrying you through pain. I believe it will carry you through but there are some ways to overload the nervous system to make it....let's say re-boot...lol Jye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:41:12 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: kihap question To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >In breaking, I don't kihap, and I still > break. Making a weird noise > is not my idea of technique. If you have good > technique, accuracy, and > power, what's the point? I might get "flamed" for > this, but I never found > the reason for a kihap. I use ki naturally. I don't > yell. I just let it > happen. It is not necessary to kiyap to break. TKD is a hard art so the ki that is being used is external ki. External ki deals with the external deliverance of power by muscles, and stuff. Because you break using a hard style momentum and gravity plays a big role in breaking. If you look at breaking multiple cement blocks, they are separated by spacers which add to the continuous breaks of the other blocks because of the force of your blow, pull of gravity, flow of momentum, etc. So in that you don't necessarilly have to use the inner ki. One of the reasons you kiyap, is to free air in your lungs for your own protection. You never want to strike and hold your breath, and you never want to take a hit while holding your breathe. There is a method of killing someone that uses a strike to a certain area on their inhale in kung fu. So breathing is the key, the kiyap is just another way to quickly get more oxygen into your body, get more ki flowing. It was once believed that by performing a good kiyap the adrenaline would start flowing, anyone ever heard of this? Jye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:47:29 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Kincade - press.points/pain compliance To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Mark the key word in your story is TRANSITIONED. that is what everyone needs to understand. Somethings may work for you 1 time and others may not work so you must be able to transition to another tactic....hey mark...after you got him downand hand cuffed, you should have pinched him...lol. Jye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Randall Sexton" To: Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:59:00 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kneecaps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>>One thing you may want to try is acupuncture. (I probably just opened Pandora's box). There are many styles of acupuncture, one in particular that may be helpful is Mark Seem's style of Acupuncture Physical Medicine (APM). Mark is the head of Tri-State College of Acupuncture in New York City.>>>> Mark Seem is my hero! I recommend his books to the acupuncture students in my bodywork class. Randall Sexton www.laughinghara.com "When you get there, there isn't any there there." Gertrude Stein --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: kihap question Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:10:14 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Absolutely I've done it both to get charged up when pressed in sparring, and to startle the opponent. I've gotten more than one of my classmates to jump out of their skin during forms practice when I kihap (not necessarily into their ear too!) -John "Make a joyful noise" (or at least a loud one) -----Original Message----- From: Jye nigma [mailto:kingjye@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 9:41 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: kihap question snip ...... One of the reasons you kiyap, is to free air in your lungs for your own protection. You never want to strike and hold your breath, and you never want to take a hit while holding your breathe. ..... get more oxygen into your body, get more ki flowing. It was once believed that by performing a good kiyap the adrenaline would start flowing, anyone ever heard of this? Jye -------------------------------- (note carefully trimmed footers and meaningful subject line :) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002 --__--__-- Message: 6 From: jmchie@wideopenwest.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 18:39:54 GMT Subject: [The_Dojang] Pinching, technique variety Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just wanted to throw my two cents in because I was discussing a similar topic with a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu instrutor last night. He's a felony prosecutor in our county, an older fellow that if you saw him in a suit in court you probalby wouldn't think twice. But once he gets his hands on you? Fughetaboutit. He said to me last night (as part of a longer story) "Don't fear the guy who says he knows 600 techniques. Fear the guy who knows 8 techniques reflexively because he does 100 repititions of them every training session." He was making a point, so I'm not sure whether he means 8 techniques literally. Still, I know him well enough that it makes me reflect on how many of my own techniques I really know reflexively. Makes me want to practice more basics :) As far as pinching, there have been a lot of messages about how it doesn't work here or there. I'm going to chime in with the chorus of folk who say of course it is a valuable technique, but of course it isn't applicable to every situation. A course strictly on pinching isn't going to win you any bar fights, but (pun intended) it sure can help getting you out of the occasional pinch. If you are working against an attacker who is not hopped up on drugs or other illegal substances, a strong, well-placed pinch or baby-fingers twist that is not anticipated is likely to cause a reflex reaction in him that won't win you the day but might distract him for a fraction of a second, or cause his grip to momentarily loosen just ever-so-slightly. If that's all you can ask for, it still makes it an extremely valuable skill, yes? No, it doesn't work on everyone, but what does? My finger knuckles are so double jointed that I can practically lay my my fingers down backwards against the back side of my hand. (I closed my gloved hand in a car door once, I mean the door closed up good on it, all my fingers just crimped up to how the door was angled, I didn't break or sprain anything) If someone tried a compliance technique or finger-break in a fight, that would buy me a fraction ofa second, too. Some people react more to pressure points than others (some days I think I'm just one big nerve ending), but their fingers don't bend in funky ways. In that way, luck is as much a part of it as anything else. Pinching? Valuable to know. That's my opinion. Jim McHie Jr. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:45:23 -0500 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Pain Tolerance / Locks Not Working?? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 10/30/2002 4:45:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Apparently he was double jointed or something in his wrists and you could crank them WAY beyond the typical comfort zone with no pain... But however, he easily succumbed to other > joint locks.... This happens quite a bit in Aikido, Jiu-jutsu and Hapkido schools. But you must remember, although they are locks, locks are really breaks. Anybody standing their smiling while you apply a joint lock past the distance the joint should bend is not truly understanding that they just lost that limb should the technique be applied to their logical conclusion. This happens a lot with beginners and I make it a point to spoil that notion of "pain tolerance" when it comes to locks right away. For many, it's an ego thing and it's best to explain to them straight away that believing there can be "pain tolerance" with locks shows their lack of knowledge of what their actually doing. Jeff --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:48:05 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Tink...Tell Us How You Really Feel Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kim wrote, <<>> Thank you for repeating me. That's correct. Karate is not a battlefield art. At no time in history has the Karate army ever charged a hill being held by the Judo army. As far as the term "martial", it's a misnomer at best. Once again, for those that want to hold onto their little fantasies...karate is a civilian art. It was created, modified, and propagated by civilians for the express purpose of self-development. Self-defense skills are a secondary concern per the original doctrine, and Funakoshi et al certainly didn't expect any of it to be used in a theater of war. <<>> This almost doesn't deserve a response. I guess all those young men who came home in body bags were torn to shreds by reverse punches and knife hand strikes as opposed to shrapnel and high-caliber ammunition. Are you that deluded to think that martial arts had anything to do with the outcomes of those conflicts? Don't you dare throw those honorable people's names up in my face as if I've somehow disgraced their memories through my comments. In contrast, YOU are the one who is looking quite foolish by invoking in their names in order to bolster an assertion that is naïve at best. Go down to a local VA hospital and talk to a wheelchair bound veteran who's actually seen some action, and see how much karate comes up in the conversation. You think those guys and gals in Afghanistan right now are worried about getting knocked out with a spinning back kick, or getting their entrails blown everywhere by a round from an AK-47? Which is it? Boy, I bet George Bush is getting all of the karate killers ready to go in against Saddam any day now. Get a grip. <<< There have been many legends and tails about the mystic and power of the martial arts...some of them have their facts and basis...some of them just folk lore...but I suggest you read your history before you make personal comments of what is and what isn't...>>> And I would suggest that you put down the current issue of TKD Times and go read some history of the Japanese martial arts. Pay particular attention to the evolution of the Bugei arts into the Budo arts. That will help clear up this little "battlefield" misconception you've got going. <<>> The more pertinent question is whether or not reading comprehension is possible (at least on your part). Go back and read my post VERY slowly. I never said a one punch kill wasn't possible. Any blow to the head or chest can certainly lead to death depending upon the force of the blow and the peculiar physiology of the subject. And being one myself, I've stood in front of, beside, and behind plenty of adept martial artists. If you will take the time to read my post, you MAY clearly see that my objection was more with the worn out adage that karate punches were developed to break through the wooden chest plates of samurai warriors. Make sure my insurance is paid up? Why? You think I can go down to the local dojo and goad Master So-and-so into blasting me with his deadly karate skills just because "I have doubts"? Wow, not only is karate a battlefield proven art (Lord knows it saw plenty of action at Iwo Jima according to Kim), but evidently its ranks are populated by goons who will kill you with one punch just to prove a point. What can I say? My whole paradigm has been shattered. I remain unwavered, and unimpressed. Craig "Wondering if there is such a thing as impersonal comments" Stovall --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:05:14 -0500 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Specialized Programs for the Middle Aged? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 10/31/2002 12:19:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Would the school be better served by recommending > a different school to people with these requests? Brian- Why not just have your older students (or injured)do standing front kick instead of jumping...sidekick instead of jumping etc...Rolling soft/hard fall instead of flip fall (sky fall??). This is something most instructors have to deal with. No reason to create a new program for them. Isn't part of their Hapkido education learning at least HOW to do them and teach them with the thought that there is value in that knowledge. They might need to impart it to others some day. I mean we don't actually learn jumping kicks to use them in a fight. Don't we teach these for students to develop explosive power, balance, timing, and even courage training for some people. I don't see why they don't need to learn it. My .02 Jeff --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:42:52 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Tink...Tell Us How You Really Feel To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok guys calm down! This is supposed to be a respectful discussion. I have shared this discussion with ninjutsu students and will post their responses here. Jye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:44:57 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Question about hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was wondering if hapkido has any throws that are designed to cripple or kill an opponent like the ones found in ninjutsu. Jye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:51:36 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: kihap question To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I remember at a tournament I was trading info with a man who studied a form of pheonix eye kung fu and he was telling me about the spirit shout, this guy did a kiyap, and I swear, the entire place got quiet for a few seconds, then everyone looked over at our area then went back to business, he had the loudest most powerful kiyap I've heard to date! Jye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang), policedo@martialartsresource.net (Policedo) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:13:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] 11-13 Year Olds at the 2003 US Open (fwd) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The 2003 US Open Taekwondo Championship will once again include 11-13 year old competitors. Originally, this age group was not going to be included for 2003 to make room for adding the Ultra Division to the US Open. That decision was made because of space constraints at the venue that would not allow for additional rings to be added, and in the interest of adding one of the fastest growing groups of competitors to our elite competition- the ULTRA competitors. National Events was also concerned about preventing having competition in the late hours such that our child athletes and parents endured at the 2002 US Open. The original decision to delete the 11-13 year old Black Belts from the 2003 for a period of one year has been rescinded. The 2003 US Open will include the younger group once again. New Application Booklets are being printed to reflect the addition of the 11-13 year old Black Belt Division. Please be patient as these are reprinted. They will be distributed as soon as they arrive from the printers. One additional note- people complain that the USTU only makes decisions based on money. In fact, we do listen to our membership. This 11-13 year old division adds approximately 250 competitors to the event, plus their parents and other relatives. The decision to delete that division was obviously not made based on money. It was made in an effort to include another group of competitors who have few opportunities to compete internationally. This was not made to keep our Junior athletes from having an at home international competition. Contrary to what some may believe, much thought did go into the original decision. This was not an arbitrary decision, but one made with deliberation. Again, the fact that the decision has been changed should reflect the fact that we value the opinions of our membership and that we do listen as well. The 11-13 year old Black Belt Division will compete in Kyuroogi on Sunday, the last day of the event and in Poomse on Thursday along with all other Poomse competitors. Registration for 11-13 year olds will be on Wednesday (19 November) and on Saturday (22 November). Please be aware that there may be some late evenings that will be unavoidable. Again, we ask your indulgence and your patience in advance. Bruce Harris Director of National Events, United States Taekwondo Union _________________________________________________________________ US Taekwondo Union One Olympic Plaza Ste 104C Colorado Springs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest