Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 16:21:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #522 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Pinch & Knife (Alagna, Steven M) 2. RE: Cliff (TINK) 3. RE: NSYNC Demo (Stovall, Craig) 4. Re: Ninjutsu (was: Question about hapkido) (Jye nigma) 5. One punch, one kill (Chris Holmes) 6. Ninja Throwing (FirstPe315@aol.com) 7. throws and know-it-alls (Paul Monier) 8. Re: Pinch & Knife (Ray Terry) 9. Re: Ninjutsu (was: Question about hapkido) (Ray Terry) 10. RE: throws and know-it-alls (Stovall, Craig) 11. Effective throws? (Patrick L) 12. Stovall's perspective (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Alagna, Steven M" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 11:08:25 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Pinch & Knife Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All, Let me just say this about pinching, if and when it does cause someone to let go, you'd better have some follow up techniques because you are going to have one pissed off person looking to destroy you for causing such pain. You may have started with a mildly irritated person, but end up with someone completely ticked who flies into a rage. Might I suggest running like a bat out of h&%$ or something much more brutal to take them down and out. You need to practice flowing from one technique to the next flowing from one joint lock to the next mixed in with striking and kicking. Regarding the knife question about James Keating I think it was??... I train w/ Kelly Worden here in Tacoma, who happens to be the combatives instructor for the 1st Special Forces here at Fort Lewis, who happens to be incredible with the knife and has a quite a few knife videos through Paladin along w/ empty hand, stick, and long pole. Check it out, you won't be disappointed. Steve --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:07:34 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "TINK" To: "Dojang" Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Cliff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Excellent point Cliff... If your whole idea of the martial arts is to "master" one technique kills and that is where your interest lies...then you are certainly in the wrong art and have the wrong idea of what the martial arts are... There are those of us that train for competition, those of us that train for street self defense, those of us that train in the art... The whole purpose is that we train defensively and not offensively, unless you are training for competition where offense is the idea...then again.. when being attacked, any defense becomes an offense, for the most part, depending upon the situation of course... But we do need to train to the full extent of our abilities learning as many techiques as possible to rely upon in case the first technique fails...of course, a technique that works on one person may not work on another and so on...therefore the need to know multiple techniques and varying methods of application...not Single Strike "Kills" specifically...but we do need to understand them, not necessarily implement them... MHO [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif] [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif] --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:23:32 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: NSYNC Demo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Just curious. Where are you going to do this demo? Is this for a tournament, or for a public demo? --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 11:42:04 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Ninjutsu (was: Question about hapkido) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi John I shared your question with ninjutsu practitioners and they'll be responding shortly. As far as I know how you can trace modern day ninjutsu to it's feudal Japan roots is through lineage, and the passing of certain scrolls (I'm assuming). But one can make the argument, how do we know that Capoeira really came from african slaves? and how do we know that the african martial arts is the actual oldest fight system in the world? Lineage, even broken lineage is very helpful. I'm sure ever ancient martial art has been altered to fit into the modern world. What I do know about ninjutsu is that the movies about it are based on the myths. The only movie I've seen so far that resembles true ninjutsu as taught by Dr. hatsumi is the hunted. In fact from what I understand the actual outfit of the ancient ninja was not the black PJs we see now. Now if you think ninjutsu is shrouded in mysticism tell me what you think about Sulsa Korea's ninjas? LOL....I have the hardest time swallowing that. Jye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 13:46:10 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] One punch, one kill Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, I would just like to add to the one punch one kill discussion. A few years ago there was a big commotion in the McComb Ms Kentwood LA area over a fight. Apparently these two men got in an argument in a bar. One of them left the bar and waited on the other to come out. The other man left the bar with his wife and was jumped in the parking lot by the first guy. Upon being attacked the second one who had his wife with him counter attacked with a single punch to the temple. The attacker fell to the gravel and died shortly there after. The courts found the surviver innocent because he responded in self defense. He was either a former green beret or a former seal, sorry I can't recall which. So in some situations the one punch one kill theory has proven true. Obviously it does not work every time. The story doesnt end there. The guy who died had a nephew who wanted to get even. This nephew shot into the guy's house repeatedly and this continued for several years, the sheriffs department did not do much. Finally the green beret( or seal) told them(sheriffs dept.) to send a hearse the next time he called. They set up a stakeout and caught the nephew when he tried to shoot at the house the next time. Thanks for the time Chris Holmes _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 14:50:27 -0500 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Ninja Throwing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 10/31/2002 8:10:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > For instance, a certain throw > would cause the person to fall on their neck snapping > their neck. Anything at all like this in hapkido? Hard to believe. Take it from a pretty decen Judoka. Even in high level (Olympic / World Championships) Judo competition, a perfectly executed throw can be reversed in the air. In Japan, they regulary train to not land exactly how they are meant to (i.e. a full Ippon throw). To many people know how to do this. Somebody who "knows what their doing" and knows how to fall properly, or even better, BOTH, could not be thrown so perfectly that their neck would break. This could only happen by accident. Jeff --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Paul Monier" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cc: CStovall@nucorar.com Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 20:52:37 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] throws and know-it-alls Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am not sure what your point is here. If the point is that any throw can be a crippling technique, you may be right. Let's look at some of these points; "Well, it's not really the throw but rather the intent" Perhaps if you practice breakfalls on concrete or asphalt you might get some perspective on what it might feel like to get thrown on the "street". Do you think a forceful throw on something other than a mat could not cripple, intent has nothing to do with it ? "After all, if you are physically and technically superior enough to throw another human being then it stands to reason you can also dictate where and how that person will land" Really ? Even if you can throw another person the environment/surface you are standing on and reaction of the other person has a lot to do with "landing" area not only your superior technique. Of course those with superior technique never make a mistake. "A simple hip throw from Judo in which the opponent is normally allowed to land on his back becomes a whole different animal when that person is then driven shoulder or head first into the ground." So if my opponent were "allowed to land on his back" (vertebrate and spinal cord) on concrete he could not be crippled ? " The basic rear naked choke in which the elbow is aligned with the chin becomes a different story when the forearm is pressed across the trachea, instead." Not sure what your point is with this ? Actually a smashed or crushed trachea (cricoid catrilage) does not render a person unconcious and may not do any permanent crippling damage. " There are only so many practical ways to throw a human being." According to who ? According to several high dan instructors (Judo) I have studied from there is an infinite number of ways and variations to throw a person. One of these instructors being Phil Porter. But what does Phil Porter sensei (former USA Judo Olympic and World team coach) know he was only a 9th dan with 50+ years in Judo when he told me this. "Look at a lot of the hand throws and foot sweeps that exist in Judo, but rarely come out during the competitive play. Why is this? " If you studied Judo you might know why. If a particular throw "rarely" comes out in competition against an equally skilled and trained opponent then it very possible that it could be done on an attacker. Every self defense situation is unique so you have to adapt, adjust, and overcome with the situation at hand. Which techniques work in all situations ? "Contrast this with the fact that most ippons in international competition are scored with the same seven to eight throws." How many is "most" and why not all ? These 7 or 8 throws are more widely practiced and taught by athletes and coaches probably because they are difficult to counter in competition. Movement and defense in competition is much diffferent than self defense. This does not mean the other 57 or 58 throws are not "practical" if the situation is open. " the antiseptic dojo atmosphere where "deadly strikes" and "super secret crippling throws" are given free reign to breed and perpetuate without the validation of fire testing." There has always been and probably will always be pretenders, "know-it-alls", and BS artists that can sell this stuff. "Take these practical methods that have been proven to work against resisting opponents, and look to see how they can be manipulated to serve the purpose at hand...whether it's scoring a point or cracking a skull." Finding a competent, Instructor in Martial Arts is not as easy as it seems. Your advice is meaningless without proper instruction and has the appearance to advocate some serious consequences. Monier sahbum _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Pinch & Knife To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:42:26 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Regarding the knife question about James Keating I think it was??... I train > w/ Kelly Worden here in Tacoma, who happens to be the combatives instructor > for the 1st Special Forces here at Fort Lewis, who happens to be incredible > with the knife and has a quite a few knife videos through Paladin along w/ > empty hand, stick, and long pole. Check it out, you won't be disappointed. Kelly is over on our Eskrima/FMA list. Along with a lot of other decent knife people. Just fyi... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Ninjutsu (was: Question about hapkido) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:57:35 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Hi John I shared your question with ninjutsu > practitioners and they'll be responding shortly. As > far as I know how you can trace modern day ninjutsu to > it's feudal Japan roots is through lineage, and the > passing of certain scrolls (I'm assuming). But one can > make the argument, how do we know that Capoeira really > came from african slaves? and how do we know that the > african martial arts is the actual oldest fight system > in the world? Lineage, even broken lineage is very > helpful. Not really. Broken lineage is worthless and unbroken lineage is almost worthless. Who cares? Does it save your bacon? That is all that matters, imho. I don't care that the Ninja guys learn a little Jujutsu or Hapkido and then dream up a lineage. That is typically the way it works, and the wilder the story the more some will pay to train. So sad... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:11:39 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: throws and know-it-alls Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Not sure what the "know-it-alls" crack is about. If you have a problem with something please feel free to e-mail me directly about it. <<>> Been there, done it. Concrete, tile, carpet, mats, etc. Anybody ever tell you what the word "assume" stands for? <<>> Yes, it could cripple. Where did I say it couldn't? <<>> Agreed. That and half-a-dozen other factors. Forgive me for generalizing. Next time I'll be more inclusive. <<>> Of course he could be crippled. Unlikely...but yes, it could happen. I'm not sure where you are coming to these conclusions based on my comments. <<>> Oh...well. If it's no big deal then why is the forearm choke banned from Judo competition, and any other combative sport that allows choking? Could it have something to do with safety? Could it be related to the fact that there are serious medical consequences to traumatizing this part of the body? Sticking a gun in my mouth and pulling the trigger "may not" kill me, either. Not sure what YOUR point is. <<>> Then Phil Porter and I have a different opinion. I know that sounds like heresy to the authoritarian personalities out there, but then again I've found the view to be a little better outside the flock (not to mention the smell). Infinite is an awfully big number, my friend. Especially, taking into consideration that we only have one head, two arms, and two legs all of which are connected to a single torso, and they all articulate in the same manner. Infinite? There is not an infinite number/variation of throws PERIOD...much less an infinite number of practical throws. Let's be reasonable, Paul. <<>> There's a whole lot that falls under the realm of "possibility". Being the numbers freak that I am I tend to look at things through the window of "probability". <<>> It's not about having the answer to everything. It's a matter of separating the wheat from the chaffe. <<>> I don't have the statistics in front of me, but they do exist. If those 7 or 8 throws are more difficult to counter in competition then they are also more difficult to counter on the street. I wonder which throws I'll be practicing? The better question is to ask why those throws are more successful. Why did coaches and athletes the world over come to the same conclusion about the same 7 to 8 throws? Could those throws be based on more sound bio-mechanical principles? Is it easier to create the necessary unbalancing for a clean hip throw, as opposed to some of the more esoteric hand throws that are dependent upon split second timing and/or an uncommon combination of movement/position by your opponent? If there are an infinite number of ways to throw people then why don't we see more diversity in the ippon statistics? Out of an infinite population of throwing techniques (Porter's assertion, not mine), how is it that these throws continue to "rise to the occasion" season after season? You seem to be saying that the wishbone offense has all but disappeared from college football because offensive coordinators have decided not to use it. I think I'm saying that the wishbone offense disappeared because it sucks. Subtle difference, but real nonetheless. <<>> It's never been a problem for me. You've had difficulty? <<>> Ummmmm...where did I imply or explicitly state to anyone that they should forego the process of formal instruction? Great reply. Made me think. Not sure you've swayed me from my opinions, but you've given me some more food for thought. Craig "I don't need no stinking nickname" Stovall --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 14:57:04 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Effective throws? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Stovall, The fact that seven or eight throws comprise the "winning" repertoire during Judo competition, only says that those throws can be attained even if the competitor is similarly skilled! It does not say mean that they are the "most effective"! I do not wish to overstress my position, since I feel your point contributes valuable information. Patrick "I thought chokes were most effective, until I saw the choker knocked unconscious by an elbow, which I thought that was best, until he submitted to an arm barrer, who I thought was best until he was knocked out by a kick, who I thought was best until he was choked out..." Notstovall :) _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 23:20:52 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Stovall's perspective Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig writes: I've taken flak for this before, but I'll say it again. There are only so many practical ways to throw a human being. Look at a lot of the hand throws and foot sweeps that exist in Judo, but rarely come out during the competitive play. Why is this? Are they not practical? Maybe...maybe not. Contrast this with the fact that most ippons in international competition are scored with the same seven to eight throws. You decide. I know people don't like to hear it, but the most practical ways to throw/sweep a human being can be found in the competitive arenas of Judo, Sambo, and wrestling, and not necessarily in the antiseptic dojo atmosphere where "deadly strikes" and "super secret crippling throws" are given free reign to breed and perpetuate without the validation of fire testing. Take these practical methods that have been proven to work against resisting opponents, and look to see how they can be manipulated to serve the purpose at hand...whether it's scoring a point or cracking a skull.>>> My God that is true poetry!! That is exactly what it is all about,, how many times have you heard all of this hooeeey and in reality this is EXACTLY what real life shows us everyday,,, great perspective Craig and I am in total agreement,, so many times I work out and people say what if I did this "killer" eye gouge groin smash whisking thyroid gland throw? If I did this for real with full power I would kill you? I say ok go ahead and kill me with this technique while I do "this" basic grappling technique,, grab, gouge, smash away and lets test the theory,, and the B.S. technique NEVER works!!! It is not because I am superior it is because all the drama and B.S. techniques are inferior.. Good Job, dude,, Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free!  Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest