Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 03:01:46 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #523 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: RE: throws and know-it-alls (Wallace, John) 2. more ITF (Ray Terry) 3. Crippling intent (michael tomlinson) 4. Re: One punch, one kill (Jye nigma) 5. One Hit, One kill (Joe Ottoson) 6. Re: Pinch & Knife (Jye nigma) 7. Re: Ninjutsu (was: Question about hapkido) (Jye nigma) 8. dogbros (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: throws and know-it-alls Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:31:42 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I know you don't have them in front of you, Craig, but could you share those statistics at some point? At least a rank-order of the eight techniques would be great. Having torqued my back last weekend on a variation of Ogoshi (balanced on one foot while other foot sweeps up and taps Uke on inner thigh) I'm all for focussing on what matters at the moment. -John W. 7th Kyu, Danzan Ryu Fremont, CA -----Original Message----- From: Stovall, Craig [mailto:CStovall@nucorar.com] Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 2:12 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: throws and know-it-alls ...snipping interesting, if heated, debate... I don't have the statistics in front of me, but they do exist. If those 7 or 8 throws are more difficult to counter in competition then they are also more difficult to counter on the street. I wonder which throws I'll be practicing? The better question is to ask why those throws are more successful. Why did coaches and athletes the world over come to the same conclusion about the same 7 to 8 throws? .... If there are an infinite number of ways to throw people then why don't we see more diversity in the ippon statistics? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002 --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:48:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] more ITF Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarded message: Situation 23 October 2002 ITF Members Our ref: ITF/21452/EXEC/TMc Dear Members, This letter is written to inform you of recent events in the ITF where some people have made accusations which are totally unfounded and from that it may be seen that they are working in their own interests and not in the interests of you and the ITF. Enclosed with this letter are letters which it is thought are necessary for you to see so that you may have a better idea of what is happening. Naturally, the ITF have tried to maintain a dignified silence to allow people time to express their opinions and to come to terms with the unfortunate, untimely death of our Founder and Past President, Gen. Choi Hong Hi. We loved him dearly and must make our own peace with our conscience about the last words of Gen. Choi Hong Hi. Gen. Choi did me the great honour of saying that he loved me and at that time I said to him that I loved him, which I meant. In fact I had addressed him sometimes as beloved Gen. Choi Hong Hi. One notable occasion was in St. Petersburg when he asked me to address the people present at a banquet. Another occasion when he asked me to speak was in Norway. Gen. Choi s last words were said on the last day that we met him and he told me that I should coordinate everything. I understand that this was disappointing to some seniors but I have been surprised by their reaction and that they make so much of some of the words of Gen. Choi but are not fair by not mentioning the other words. I have not been given the common courtesy of being consulted in my position as Secretary General and VIIIth. Dan in the ITF by people who are expecting respect to be shown unreservedly to them. In a meeting in Pyongyang, following Gen. Chois words, I did not agree with the translation of some of the statements. You may wonder how I could do that when Gen. Choi spoke mostly in the Korean language? I had an interpreter who told me what was being said. Even the ITF Grand Masters agreed that some of the statements were not correct and the North Korean people, who had presented the translation, agreed to change them. I had refused to sign the translation but with the promise that they would be changed I agreed to save further embarrassment at such a time and signed. To this day I have seen no changes. At that time in Pyongyang it was agreed that we would go back to our countries and convene a meeting of the seniors as soon as possible to discuss the words of Gen. Choi because we did not think that some were meant in the manner written and that we should discuss the final release of the words. Sadly, Gen. Choi died shortly after our departure. At the later meeting in Toronto it was agreed not to publish one paragraph to save embarrassment to Gen. Choi as we did not think that he meant it in the way it was written. It was suggested that we could change the paragraph but it was felt that we could not change parts of it. Later it was suggested by GM Hwang Kwang Sung that we take other parts of other paragraphs out and this proved that our previous agreement not to change parts was correct. In the event he published the paragraph that was omitted and this was in extremely bad taste as we had agreed on what to do. Some people accused us of not publishing the words quickly enough but we did as quickly as was possible. GM Hwang, GM Rhee, GM Park and Master Hwang Jin went to Pyongyang on 17th. September. We others went on the 21st. September. On the morning of 22nd. September, a proportion of our members were awoken at 2 a.m. and asked to sign a paper asking for a special meeting to be held. Some People refused to sign even although pressure was brought to bear on them. We visited the Grave of Gen. Choi on the morning of 22nd. September. In the afternoon a memorial service was held in the Peoples Palace. Following the service, the officials of the ITF were led to a waiting room. In the room I was shown some papers and told that 40 of the countries present had signed to say that they wanted an extraordinary meeting of the ITF. I refused to accept the papers. In accordance with the constitution it states that all such papers should be sent to the Secretary General. The Chairman of the Consultative Council advised me that such a meeting would be unconstitutional because of Paragraphs in the constitution and I agreed. The Chairman of the Consultative Council then told all present that it would be illegal and I agreed. However, it was announced that we should go in and be present at the meeting. I refused. The Chairman of the Consultative Council told me that he wanted to go in to the meeting to explain that it would be unconstitutional. Following the meeting I had several conversations with the people who had been at the meeting and I believe that the following happened. A large sign had been put in place stating that this was a SPECIAL CONGRESS OF ITF. How was this possible when it had not been announced to all the ITF members? The meeting was conducted with GM Rhee Ki Ha as Chairman despite having been advised of the illegality of it, how is this possible from a Vice President of the ITF?. The members were receiving a translation into their own languages through earphones. At what turned out to be the penultimate point of the meeting, GM Rhee said something in the Korean language. The translation was not received by most of those present. Mr. Chang Ung came into the hall and was clapped by GM Rhee. Some of the people present believed that they were clapping for his entrance. What did GM Rhee announce? The people were told that they had voted for Mr. Chang Ung to be the next president of the ITF. There was no democratic procedure observed. Nobody had proposed the president. Nobody had seconded. Nobody had voted. There was a rumour circulating that I had phoned President Russell MacLellan but this was untrue. Mobile telephones are confiscated when visitors arrive in Pyongyang. To telephone out they have to go to the only exchange in the hotel and book it (which was not done). Following my return from Pyongyang I telephoned our President and advised him of what had transpired. He said that I should consult the ITF lawyer in Vienna to check on the legality of what had happened. The lawyer confirmed that it had been illegal. I went to the ITF office on 26th. and although Son u Chol was there Pak Si Ung Was not. I asked for a meeting and eventually Pak arrived in the office. The meeting consisted of them telling me that Chang Ung was president and that I should follow his instructions. I told them that Russell MacLellan was President and that I would follow his instructions. Having spoken to some people in Pyongyang following the visit to Korea a concern was expressed about the ITF funds being in jeopardy. In my conversation with the President we had broached the subject. I decided to secure the bulk of the ITF funds ($60,000.00) and transferred them to an account under my name as the bank advised me that any account under the ITF name could be withdrawn by any of the people authorized. I advised the President and then the ITF lawyer what I had done. At a meeting in Vienna, Italy had paid for certificates in cash and I paid the ITF President his salary from that. Pak Si Ung and Son U Chol objected to this but I had previously asked senior people in the ITF about their feelings about it. They all agreed that as the previous President had received a salary that the precedent should be carried on. The ITF salaries were agreed by Gen. Choi Hong Hi but at the end of the month the Secretary General and the part time secretary had their salary cut and when Pak Si Ung and Son U Chol were questioned about it they said that Mr. Chang Ung had declared that it should be so. Is Mr. Chang Ung a member of the ITF? The Panam Championships were held in Quebec at the beginning of October and a very good event it was. A very frank Masters meeting was held on the 14th. and present were: The President of the ITF, Mr. Maclellan, Secretary General, President of Panam, President of Europe, Chairman of the Consultative Council, Chairman of the Ethics Committee, Chairman of the Tournament Committee, Chairman of the Umpire Committee, Chairman of the Education Committee and Chairman of the Technique Committee as well as others. In Europe a legal meeting of the AETF elected Master Wim Bos as President of the AETF. The past president, Master Stylianides does not like it that all of Europe voted for Master Bos and is trying to cause confusion but you should not be confused about this as Master Bos is the president. Master Stylianides says that Mr. Chang Ung is the president of the ITF but legally he is not. From the notices posted by Master Stylianides it seems that he supports another organization but you know why he is not president of the AETF, because you did not vote for him. The ITF consider what was voted for in Europe to be legally and morally correct and Master Stylianides letter for people to be referred to the disciplinary committee is not valid as he is the chairman and should be entirely neutral. Everyone should have faith and view the events taking place as part of the process of settling down following the tragedy of the death of Gen. Choi. Our future is secure if we remain calm and listen to the voice of reason. At the present time Master Stylianides is not the only person claiming that Mr. Chang Ung is the president and the Korean staff who work in the ITF office are causing difficulties and the ITF lawyer in Vienna is taking legal action about it. To ensure that the ITF is not undermined we have decided in the interim period to change the address to be Brunner Strasse 190/2/16, 1210 Vienna, Austria, Tel/Fax: 0043 1 2941752 and e-mail t.mac@chello.at. Please use the above address for all mail and the numbers given for telephone or e-mail. If you have any doubts about anything then please ask. We assure you that all things being done are legal and being handled by a lawyer. You should not listen to any rumours. Democracy is assured as we are determined that your voice will be heard. Our future is in our hands and we must make sure that we do not miss this opportunity. We wish to have a meeting to decide our future properly and it has been decided that the best opportunity will be in Poland in June of next year. At that time we believe that most members will be present and have the opportunity to speak out and to vote for it. Until then we ask for your support and understanding, after all it is only 8 months away. We believe that we have your support and will do our best for you. Faith is all that is needed. Do not listen to rumours or speculate. Ask questions of the correct people and get the truth. Master T.T. MacCallum Secretary General of the ITF --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 00:55:18 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Crippling intent Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A lot of basic throws can be turned into very dangerous techniques with a little tweaking here and there,, the biggest thing we do to make a throw more "user friendly" is release the pressure on the limb being manipulated and used as the throwing lever, and "ease" up on the directional approach in which we are leading the opponents body and or bodyparts onto as opposed to into the ground, a simple outer reap for instance can be much more devastating when we use our palm heel to the chin and then lead the opponents head into the ground as opposed to simply using the palm heel per say on the opponents shoulder, most throwing techniques can be used as a pseudo gentle or less maiming throw or as a much more end all throw,, firemans carry is another good one for an example, by simply standing up more and pushing up with mybody in a power clean motion the opponent can be launched instead of "led" to the ground, I think a lot of people may not be familiar with the mean side of a lot of throws... that's all... and maybe that is good in the long run??? Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 17:32:44 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] One punch, one kill To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I remember in CT a group of crips were fighting another gang (the crips are mostly asian) and the other gang was an all black gang). Well one of the asian guys ran full speed towards one of my friends who just threw out his fist and accidently caught the asian guy in his throat. he died, and my friend was sentenced. The point is yes a well planned one punch can work, but you may not have time to execute it. It's like in basketball, alot of guys can slam dunk with ease, but in a real time game you only see a few guys that actually dunk during the game. Jye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 18:47:40 -0700 From: Joe Ottoson To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] One Hit, One kill Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I got the impression from a few sources (Best Karate, Living the Martial Way, which both describe it in terms of "Kime") that the concept of one hit, one kill was more a mindset than ever an actual practice. In other words, you practice with the intent of each technique being as focused as possible. More of a practice in deadly earnest kinda thing than practicing to kill anyone per se. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:13:32 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Pinch & Knife To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Ray, do you know of the Dog brothers? If so is there any available info about them? Jye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:23:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Ninjutsu (was: Question about hapkido) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I like to learn about the lineage about certain arts because you get an idea of what was going on at a certain time. I don't look at lineage as to say....(in my best kung fu movie voice)...hmmmm....you don't really study the true fu jow pai. But just to learn alittle more about the art's possible where abouts. By looking up Hapikdo's lineage, I found out some interesting info. I guess history just interests me. Jye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:06:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] dogbros Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > do you know of the Dog brothers? If so is there any > available info about them? Yes, I know and have met many of them. The next gathering is in 3 weeks. The website is http://dogbrothers.com. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest