Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 03:01:51 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #539 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Gup? (Ray Terry) 2. Re: Gup? (Braeswood Martial Arts) 3. RE: Gup? (Wallace, John) 4. Gup (shereeg@frontiernet.net) 5. Re: lost (and hopefully found!) martial spirit (Denise Lee) 6. Re: forms (dd-9-538) (Daves MA Mail) 7. Sun Myung Moon & the ATA ?? (Ray Terry) 8. Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do) (Ray Terry) 9. Re: Gup? (Scott Summe) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gup? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:13:50 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I study Kuk Sool Won and as far as ranking goes we only have belt colors. What > exactly is a Gup? I'll take a quick stab. Others should please join in also. The gup / dan ranking concept used in many KMAs was probably borrowed from the kyu / dan ranking scheme used in many Japanese MAs. I believe(?) it was developed by Judo's Dr. Jigoro Kano. gup levels are to the color belt ranks as dan levels are to black belt ranks. Given the significance of the number 3 by the Koreans, gup ranks typically start at 9 (3x3) and go up to 1st gup. Then from 1st dan up to 9th dan. e.g. a 9th gup is frequently a white belt, 8th gup yellow belt, etc, up to 1st gup which is typically either a red belt or a brown belt. The color belt schemes, which color corresponds to what gup #, will vary greatly from style to style and org to org. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gup? Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:03:16 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Mike, Nice to see you here again. My understanding is that Gup is the ranking under black belt which the number depends upon how many level till the practitioner reaches 1st black. As we really do not use this system in Kong Shin, perhaps a TKD or TSD person can add more light on the subject and correct me if I am mistaken. Good luck with your continued success in training. Kat ----- Original Message ----- From: "MW" To: "the_dojang" Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 10:38 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Gup? > I study Kuk Sool Won and as far as ranking goes we only have belt colors. What > exactly is a Gup? > > michael whalen KSWnut > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Gup? Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:52:53 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gup is color-belt ranking. Different systems frequently use the colors in different orders though. Number ranking is more universally understood (although some conversion is necessary). For example, the dojang I practice at has sixteen belts (including "advanced betls, with a black stripe running lengthwise), while traditional gup ranks go from in descending order from 9th (white) to 1st (last color belt before testing for black belt). In my case, 3rd gup lasted through "red, red advanced, and brown". John Wallace I Dan (plain ol' black belt), TKD Fremont, CA -----Original Message----- From: MW [mailto:whalen@natgraph.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:38 AM To: the_dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] Gup? I study Kuk Sool Won and as far as ranking goes we only have belt colors. What exactly is a Gup? michael whalen KSWnut _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "shereeg@frontiernet.net" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:07:16 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Gup Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael, I'm sure you've heard of "Dan" levels -- levels of blackbelt, such as 1st degree or 2nd degree. This term is used in both TKD and Karate. Well, the student grades, or colored belt levels, also have numbered grades. They will vary by individual school. In Korean, they are termed "Gup", or sometimes "Kup". In Japanese the term is "kyu". So, for example, in my past life I studied Karate for many years, and attained the level of first kyu ("ikkyu" in Japanese). The levels count down as you gain proficiency, therefore I was very highly ranked, and would have been up for my black belt next, had I decided to continue in that school. Instead, after a break of a number of years, I started studying TaeKwonDo. I am currently a 5th gup blue belt, hopefully to become a 4th gup purple belt on Friday. I have found that TKD differs from Karate (at least my school does) in that the level before black belt in TKD is "bodan", which is not a "gup" at all. In my school advanced red is first gup, then bodan, then finally black belt. You may have noticed that different schools order their colors differently, some use stripes, some don't, sometimes a stripe counts as a gup level, so everything is subjective, except that you should be showing mastery (hopefully) by the time you get to "Dan". Hope that's helpful. -- Sheree Goldstein -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Denise Lee" To: Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:12:22 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: lost (and hopefully found!) martial spirit Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > this post. . . I have saved a copy and may share it, with your permission. I am grateful that you found my thoughts helpful and honored that you think they might be of use to someone else! Please feel free to share. > > >. . . if you never want to quit, there's something wrong with your training experience. If it always goes smoothly then there is no challenge to grow in your purpose. > Chord number 1 that gets struck! I've been feeling less than challenged in some repsects, and seemingly insurmountably challenged in others, with my martial arts training. And this will happen over & over again along your journey. One step, one breath at a time. FAR, FAR greater minds than mine have made it clear that we should just surrender ourselves to the process. Whatever it is that we're doing at the moment is what's important and what deserves our total focus. (It's a "Zen" thing:) "It is what it is." Trust your instructor. Trust the process. Trust yourself! Embrace your art. Embrace the practice. If you do that, make that a habit, you will meet whatever challenges you face. At some point in your journey, you may find that what you're embracing just plain doesn't "feel" right anymore. That's when it's time to find another path. > > > "Why am I doing this? What is my purpose?" > This has been some questions I have been asking myself. I have a lot of answers. First, it's to eventually achieve the intermediary goal of obtaining my black belt. Second, I want to see if I have what it takes to get there. Every once in a while I say "I don't know why I'm doing this to myself." I really like the way you state your first reason -- "the intermediary goal." So many people consider themselves "finished" when they achieve that black belt step. ("Step" being the important word.) As to your second goal, you must persist to find out just what "it" is that it takes to get there. Some of "it" you know intellectually, but most of "it" remains to be experienced -- & that's much of the joy in the journey. Which brings me to your third point about "I don't know why I'm doing this to myself." This is pretty much a universal question, prompted by a bazillion different reasons. One answer I often give is this: "If it isn't fun, go find another way to hurt yourself;-)" Those doubts -- of ourselves & of the choices we make -- exist in most phases of our lives, not just our martial training. And, if this was easy, everyone would do it. You've probably heard this many times from your instructor! > GM Kee founded the system I study, and this inspires me. Do you have an ISBN for texts he's written? Sadly, his works are considered proprietary by the USSBDMDK Federation, but you can purchase them (VERY expensive) from http://www.soobahkdo.com. I can find no ISBN in Volume One, but the Library of Congress Catalog Number is: 79-110358. You may find some great information on Master Dan Segarra's Warrior-Scholar website, which has some useful philosophical information re: Korean martial arts, although there is a strong emphasis on Soo Bahk Do. http://www.warrior-scholar.com/ Master Dennis McHenry's site is also very informative & provides some great links: http://users.ev1.net/~D.McHenry/TangSooDo/index.htm If you are mostly interested in the Song of the Sip Sahm Seh (Song of the Thirteen Influences/Postures), & other such philosophical background to the martial arts, I would highly recommend a book by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: "Tai Chi Secrets of the Ancient Masters." ISBN: 1-886969-71-X Published by YMAA Publication Center, Boston, MA. I think I get mine from Amazon or B & N. > . . . at times in the dojang, I feel a sort of emotional void. I guess I feel a bit selfish, but I need some positive attention once in a while, even if it's just a "Good one!" or "Nice kata." We all appreciate positive reinforcement for our efforts! It's human nature. Some instructors are more free with this kind of feedback than others. And sometimes even those who are free with this kind of feedback have YOUR interests in mind when they may not give you that positive feedback you seek. The goal is to get it from yourself. To develop your own self-awareness so that you can know, really know, when what you are doing is being done well (or not) -- without needing the feedback from anyone else. To be honest enough with yourself to celebrate your successes, not only criticize yourself for your mistakes. > Yes, my father has come through the operation extremely well, and is making strides daily. That is wonderful news, indeed!! > This is tough, the senior belts in my school keep pointing that a green belt's tenure is filled with empotional highs and lows, and that this is not just acceptable, but appropriate. So true. There is so much change occurring during this phase. Moving through the intermediate stage -- from a beginning intermediate to an advanced intermediate -- takes a whole lot of learning and growth. Change. It's hard work sometimes. And sometimes it's no work at all, except you have to be aware enough to notice it:) > My biggest fault here is that I push myself too hard and try to keep up with the others. I'm embarrassed by my physical conditioning so I over compesate and don't flow. It's like I am not being natural with it, and it feels "wrong". If you focus on the work of others, you are not focusing on your own work. Trying to be "like" others is fruitless. You must be "like" yourself. But if you focus on others, you'll only know them. If you focus on yourself, you'll come to know & understand yourself. If you focus on others' strengths, you'll never find your own. Look inside. Be honest enough to see your strengths. You have many. Then use those strengths to minimize &/or overcome your weaknesses. My first instructor shared some wise words of advice with me: "Don't MAKE your technique happen. LET it happen." That takes at the very least: patience, many repetitions, and self-awareness. > . . . perspectives have truly given me the key, which I had all along, but couldn't see. Thank you! You are most welcome. Might I suggest that you speak with your own instructor re: some reading references that s/he might recommend for you. Generally at this stage of training, time spent in physical training is the most beneficial -- to help you not get too focused on intellectualizing the learning. But, those of us who are "older" students generally benefit greatly from pursuing the "deeper" meanings of our training. Your instructor will undoubtedly have some suggestions for you. Best wishes to you on this shared martial journey. (We are, afterall, in this together.) And I must add that your instructor is quite fortunate to have such a thoughtful, determined student as you. Denise "You will be what you practice." intentlee@snet.net --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Daves MA Mail" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] forms (dd-9-538) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:37:34 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Who created the forms of tang soo do, was it Hwang > Kee or some Okinawans? > Fred Okinawans (some of the forms can be traced back to China via Okinwa), Hwang Kee admited as much in his book "History of Moo Duk Kwan", stating he learned the forms from a book on Okinawan Karate. He didn't metion the author of the book, but the most predominent book (if not the only book) on Okinawan Karate at that time was Funikoshi's (pre Shotokan) text. Dave --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:58:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Sun Myung Moon & the ATA ?? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Is Rev. Sun Myung Moon still involved with or invested in the ATA? Or is that just one of those MA (urban) legends? Just curious... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:00:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Sadly, his works are considered proprietary by the USSBDMDK Federation, but > you can purchase them (VERY expensive) from http://www.soobahkdo.com. I can > find no ISBN in Volume One, but the Library of Congress Catalog Number is: > 79-110358. You might be able to find the first printing and/or later versions via bookfinder.com or eBay. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:18:08 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Scott Summe Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gup? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A gup is another representation of ur grade or belt. (ex 10th gup is white belt.) -Steve 2nd Dan WTF >I study Kuk Sool Won and as far as ranking goes we only have belt colors. What >exactly is a Gup? > >michael whalen KSWnut >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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