Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:33:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #573 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Master Wollmershauser's passing (Chris LaCava) 2. Chops (Charles Richards) 3. Number 8 & Mind Reads (Khalkee@netscape.net) 4. taegeuk (Chris Hamilton) 5. Re: 3, 9 & Hyungs (Mark M. Smith) 6. 3, 9 & Hyungs (why 8?) ( Mac) 7. Why 8 - one more thing... ( Mac) 8. RE>108 (MW) 9. Re: Master Wollmershauser's passing (ABurrese@aol.com) 10. Re: John Chung's Forms (Jonathan Payne) 11. RE: Re: John Chung's Forms (Wallace, John) 12. ITF/North Korea mets with WTF (Dave Steffen) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Chris LaCava" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 07:59:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Wollmershauser's passing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net He was a very strong man for battling the cancer as long as he did. My old teacher was a close friend of his and would say how the average man wouldn't make it this far. We send our condolences to Joanie and his entire family. Chris "from CT" LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 05:26:33 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Chops Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Well Charles, traditionaly you only carve your name and/or your school's name on the stone, and nothing else. Take a look at the certificates issued by the Korean masters. Most of them only have their names carved on the seal stones. <> Dear Master Wee, Thank you for posting that information, and thank you to Charlie V. for starting the thread. I will move forward with creating a chop that says Richards Moja (Hap) Kwan Mu Do Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TangSooDo Regards, S. H. WEE __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:18:18 -0500 From: Khalkee@netscape.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Number 8 & Mind Reads Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For a long time China used an octal (8-based) counting system, not decimal (10-based). Tae Geuk - Tai Chi Pal Gue = Ba Gua (Pa Kua). Pa Kua is Chinese Eight (Pa) Trigrams (Kua) Kung Fu (Chuan Fa; actually Chang). There may be some relationship btwn the Ba Gua symbolism and the use of 8s. There's philosophical stuff in there related to the trigrams and the Book of Changes. Re: reading mind or situation ... good one Ray. Context goes a long way in promoting comprehension of the behavior of things and critters within it ... context, experience, memory, and preconscious processing of body language/subtle postural signals, changes in facial expression and breathing pattern ... stuff like this can explain a lot of it. It's like comparing the "intuition" of the expert with the "intuition" or lack of it in the beginner's medical diagnoses. By the time the expert attains his/her expert level of diagnostic "intuition", much of the trial-and-error and learning through successes/failures along the way become preconsiocus processing. A person who spends a lot of time interacting with, observing, assisting, etc. others for years should be expected to have refined their ability to anticipate some people's thoughts/behavior in -some- situations. That doesn't mean that they're always going to be right or that it will transfer to other situations, or even to people other cultures since the behavioral signs may vary with culture. __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Chris Hamilton" To: Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:17:42 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] taegeuk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think the name says it all. Taegeuk is the um-yang (yin-yang) symbol, which is surrounded by the eight "gwe". The gwe symbolize the different elements such as fire, water, etc.. Phal is the number eight in Korean, hence the name palgwe. Chris Han Mu Do --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:52:09 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "Mark M. Smith" Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 3, 9 & Hyungs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At 03:01 AM 12/10/2002 -0800, you wrote: >out, the connection with the number 3...Why are forms (poomse) put >together >in groups of 8 (i.e. - taeguk and palgwe forms)? > ><> > >Naihafanji Hyungs and Ki Cho Hyungs are in sets of three..... > >ITF forms consist of 24 which is a multiple of 3. > >Not sure why WTF came up with 8, other than maybe one per belt level? The Kukkiwon color belt poomsae (both Palgwe and Taeguek) are based on the Palgwe ( Pal - "eight", Gwe - "Um/Yang tri-bars"). Each poomsae in the set corresponds to one of the Palgwe symbols. This is why there are 8 poomsae, one for each of the Palgwe symbols. For a more complete explanation see the Kukkiwon web site: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/tkskill/pomsae_index.asp Respectfully, Mark M. Smith Merrimack, NH --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:36:16 -0600 From: " Mac" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] 3, 9 & Hyungs (why 8?) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> I believe it has to do with the eight bar-signs (called kwae) outside the Um/Yang circle arranged around the Taegeuk in an orderly system, of which only 4 are on their current flag. http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/tkskill/pomsae_index.asp?div=3 Mac TangSoo! ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:40:31 -0600 From: " Mac" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Why 8 - one more thing... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I failed to mention the symbol "Taegeuk" has the 8 directions "Palgwae" and is where the names of the forms came from as well as why there are 8 in each set. "Taegeuk is a symbol representing the principles of the cosmos creation and the norms of human life." Mac TangSoo/TaeKwon ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: 10 Dec 02 13:53:10 -0600 From: MW To: the_dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] RE>108 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was told that it was the "108 torments" suffered by the korean people. Anyone else heard the same? (sigh!) If I could only remember everything I knew! michael whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:17:11 -0500 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Wollmershauser's passing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I only had the opportunity to talk to Master Wollmershauser once on the phone and we shared a couple of e-mails a few years back. I'm sorry to see another Hapkidoin go before his time. My condolences to his family and those that were close to him. Alain Burrese www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Jonathan Payne" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:26:39 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: John Chung's Forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>However, he might do a nice form, but he is doing it early seventies ITF >>style. The ITF basics have changed A LOT since then.>> That's something I have a hard time grasping. I thought the basics were one thing that never changed. The basics are what makes one system different from another IMHO. How would the basics of Gen. Choi's (ITF)TKD change? Jon David Payne _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: John Chung's Forms Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:58:02 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well, on another list I subscribe to (www.groups.yahoo.com/groups/itf-taekwondo) they recently had an in-depth discussion about how the ITF "side piercing kick" differs from an older version of the "japanese style" side kick that they attribute to other forms of TKD. ITF also has a lot of terminology differences (turning kick instead of round kick - walking/sitting instead of front/horse stances) that have minor technical tweaks compared to other styles. Proponents would probably insist that the tweaks are significant improvements over the "older" methods. I'm curious about how you could go about proving that was so. I don't mean to sound disparaging of the ITF style. There's a lot of good stuff there. John Wallace I Dan, TKD Fremont, CA -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Payne [mailto:payne1032@hotmail.com] Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: John Chung's Forms >>However, he might do a nice form, but he is doing it early seventies >>ITF style. The ITF basics have changed A LOT since then.>> That's something I have a hard time grasping. I thought the basics were one thing that never changed. The basics are what makes one system different from another IMHO. How would the basics of Gen. Choi's (ITF)TKD change? Jon David Payne --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Dave Steffen Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:26:21 -0700 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF/North Korea mets with WTF Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Ray Terry > Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 22:32:47 -0800 (PST) [...] > > The President of the International Taekwon-Do Federation (ITF) and the > President of the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) met in USA to discuss > their mutual interests in Taekwon-Do. > > The ITF President, Mr. Chang Ung was visiting USA to attend the General > Assembly of International Sports Federation (GAISF) Congress. Upon his > arrival at the airport, Mr. Chang Ung was warmly welcomed by many > American Taekwon-Do practitioners. Me, me, my instructor, and several of our black belt students among them - yes, thank you very much. ;-) Mr. Chang was four hours late (and ended up at the wrong airport - orignially we was going to come in to Colorado Springs), so we ended up hanging out at DIA in our doboks for quite a while. Not the strangest place I've been in uniform, but close. ;-) Mr. Chang seemed to really appreciate the fact that we were there - considering the time (he got in after 11:00 pm), the change of airport, and so forth. TKD Times had a photographer there (I think Black Belt Magazine did too), so hopefully we'll be in the next issue. > of the ITF, Mr. Chang Ung met the President of the WTF, Dr. Un Yong Kim > at the Broadmoor Hotel, Colorado Springs, USA. Others in attendance at > this historical meeting were Grand Master Hwang Kwang Sung, the acting > ITF Secretary General, Master Phap Lu, the ITF Deputy Secretary General > Planning, Master Ri Yong Sok, the ITF Chairman of the Technical > Committee, Mr. Ri Yong Son, the Deputy Secretary of General > Administration and Mr. Lee Kum Hong, the WTF Secretary General. Many of the ITF people came in Wednesday night. My instructor, Mr. Roena, was there; we got a slightly incoherent call from his cell phone, to the effect that he was up to his ears in _very_ high ranking ITF personnel. ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest