Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 19:49:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #7 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Tae Kwon Do Won (Wallace, John) 2. What is the Kukkiwon? (was: more ITF news) (Dave Steffen) 3. Re: Tae Kwon Do Won (Ray Terry) 4. RE: Tae Kwon Do Won (Wallace, John) 5. Re: What is the Kukkiwon? (was: more ITF news) (Ray Terry) 6. Byong Hong Yu (Ray Terry) 7. Terminology question... (J Thomas Howard) 8. Re: What is the Kukkiwon? (Roger Lewis) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Tae Kwon Do Won Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:01:46 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Laurie: I was a member of the California TKD Association in the mid '80s, and the master there (Byong Hong Yu) described his art as Moo Duk Kwan TKD. The format he used was quite similar to what you described, although the modern Kukkiwon forms weren't fully developed at that point. He used a combination of his own interpretation of instructional forms for low belts, plus the pyung-anh (sp?) forms for higher gup ranks. Worked fine - some great artists (IMO) are from that dojang. I'm curious - I've never heard anyone describe a dojang that they actually belong to as a McDojang - its always been a perjorative applied to "the place across town". What drew you to that conclusion? John Wallace I Dan, TKD Fremont, CA -----Original Message----- From: Laurie S. [mailto:karatekid1975@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:25 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Tae Kwon Do Won Hiya all. I have a question for the Digest members (a couple actually). Anyways, I've been hunting for a new dojang (I found out quickly that my dojang is a "McDojang"). I did find one and I learned a lot about it. They are a member of the Tae Kwon Do Won ( http://www.ustw.org/ ). They say that they do Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan. Which is true. I asked one of the black belts. They do TSD forms after black belt like Bassai, Nihanchi (sp?), ect. But they do WTF forms before black belt. The master said the reason for this is, that his master (I forget his name off hand) was one of Hwang Kee's original students before he made the "switch" (At the time when TSD and TKD went their own ways) to TKD. So he uses the WTF forms under BB, then does the Moo Duk Kwan forms after BB. Is this narmal in some TKD dojangs? Is anyone here a memeber of the Tae Kwon Do Won? Thanks in advance Laurie _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.434 / Virus Database: 243 - Release Date: 12/25/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.434 / Virus Database: 243 - Release Date: 12/25/2002 --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Dave Steffen Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:14:58 -0700 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] What is the Kukkiwon? (was: more ITF news) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Ray Terry > Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:05:47 -0800 (PST) > [...] > [Dave Steffen wrote] > > > > The difference, IMHO, is that the WTF does not represent or promote > > a specific martial art; it represents and promotes a specific form > > of martial art competition. The ITF very definitely represents and > > promotes a very specific martial art. There's a huge difference. > > I guess this is correct. The Kukkiwon is the org that promotes a > specific martial art, Kukki-Taekwondo. I'm not sure I agree, but then I'm not absolutely sure what the Kukkiwon teaches. From my experience in the WTF, one can get black belt certifications from the Kukkiwon regardless of how one does the patterns, or even which patterns are done. Do the instructors who actually teach at the Kukkiwon agree on what patterns to teach, and how to teach them? This is a serious question: I don't know what they do. I _do_ know that WTF instructors in Denver teach all kinds of different stuff, and all get Kukkiwon certificates for their black belt students. Does this happen at the Kukkiwon? If not, what do the Kukkiwon instructors think about it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Tae Kwon Do Won To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:18:47 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I was a member of the California TKD Association in the mid '80s, and the > master there (Byong Hong Yu) described his art as Moo Duk Kwan TKD. The > format he used was quite similar to what you described, although the modern > Kukkiwon forms weren't fully developed at that point. I met Byong Yu for the first time in about 1985 at a tourny of his, up north of San Francisco. Perhaps you too were there.?.?. FWIW, the Kukkiwon forms were fully developed and published prior to 1980, but some of the Masters had not yet learned them given they were not the forms they had learned coming up thru the ranks. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Tae Kwon Do Won Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:32:51 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I probably was - I was a 16 yr old TKD junkie at that point. I even went to tournaments before I could compete in them. Later (in 1987) I was a member of the demo team, although I was still gup ranked. I owe a lot of my success to him, his quiet wisdom and patience made a hell of a lot more impression on me than the screaming flashiness of movie martial artists. The bottom line with him was respect - and you started out with it, and kept it till you lost it. Respect your parents, respect your teachers, and respect yourself. Thanks for the trip down memory lane, Ray. Can't say I recall meeting you then - but at that point all black belts faces were obscured by halos from my point of view :) John Wallace I Dan, TKD (tilted halo) Fremont, CA -----Original Message----- From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 3:19 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Tae Kwon Do Won > I was a member of the California TKD Association in the mid '80s, and > the master there (Byong Hong Yu) described his art as Moo Duk Kwan > TKD. The format he used was quite similar to what you described, > although the modern Kukkiwon forms weren't fully developed at that point. I met Byong Yu for the first time in about 1985 at a tourny of his, up north of San Francisco. Perhaps you too were there.?.?. FWIW, the Kukkiwon forms were fully developed and published prior to 1980, but some of the Masters had not yet learned them given they were not the forms they had learned coming up thru the ranks. Ray Terry --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.434 / Virus Database: 243 - Release Date: 12/25/2002 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] What is the Kukkiwon? (was: more ITF news) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:43:40 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I'm not sure I agree, but then I'm not absolutely sure what the > Kukkiwon teaches. The Kukkiwon is the World Taekwondo Headquarters (it says so on the Dan certs from there :). Kukki-Taekwondo is the art that is homed there. > From my experience in the WTF, one can get black belt certifications > from the Kukkiwon regardless of how one does the patterns, or even > which patterns are done. The are standards defined, but given the extremely large and dispersed nature of Kukki-Taekwondo they cannot check every student or even every instructor. The instructor indicates on the Dan app form to the Kukkiwon that the student has met all minimum requirements. As mentioned in my previous email, some instructors teach what they learned coming up through the ranks. Thus they might not teach either of the two accepted forms sets. Yes, I think that all Kukki-TKD students should learn the primary forms set for gups (taegeuk), but some instructors are just too lazy (IMHO) to learn the newer forms. They may make excuses that the older forms are better, more traditional, etc, but imho all they are doing is short-changing their students. > Do the instructors who actually teach at the Kukkiwon agree on what > patterns to teach, and how to teach them? Yes. One can see these forms via videos from (or blessed by) the Kukkiwon or by attending regularly held instructor course(s) at the Kukkiwon. In the US the USTU also holds similar instructor courses a few times each year. > This is a serious > question: I don't know what they do. I _do_ know that WTF > instructors in Denver teach all kinds of different stuff, and all get > Kukkiwon certificates for their black belt students. The WTF/Kukkiwon isn't nearly as militaristic as the ITF. That can be both good and bad. Yes, one can probably find more variation in Kukki-TKD students than in ITF TKD or in ATA students. > Does this happen at the Kukkiwon? If not, what do the Kukkiwon > instructors think about it? Comments from others...??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:57:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Byong Hong Yu Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I probably was - I was a 16 yr old TKD junkie at that point. I even went to > tournaments before I could compete in them. Later (in 1987) I was a member > of the demo team, although I was still gup ranked. I owe a lot of my > success to him, his quiet wisdom and patience made a hell of a lot more > impression on me than the screaming flashiness of movie martial artists. > The bottom line with him was respect - and you started out with it, and kept > it till you lost it. Respect your parents, respect your teachers, and > respect yourself. I first heard of Byong Yu in about the mid-70s. He and Chuck Norris were among the top ranked full contact fighters on the circuit at that time. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 To: "the_dojang" Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:56:03 -0600 (CST) From: thomcat@binary.net (J Thomas Howard) Subject: [The_Dojang] Terminology question... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Question: If one is going to write in Hangul (on a t-shirt or something like that) "instructor" beneath the school logo, what does one write? I know that "Sabum" is one of the words for instructor (among other definitions, such as Master Instructor), and that the suffix "nim" is only added as an honorific when speaking to someone else, so it wouldn't be Sabumnim---but is Sabum correct? Is that the correct label one would put one a shirt for a teacher? For some reason my brain is telling me that isn't correct, though I don't know why. Thanks for any help I can get. Oh---also wanted to mention (for anyone in the market for school/association patches and such) that the company at http://www.emblem-badge.com/index.html does excellent work VERY cheaply. Not only that, they stand behind their guarantee, which is "Should the products purchased prove other than so stated in your order, Daisy will remake them at our expense." I know this from personal experience, and not only did they re-do the entire job, they rush-mailed the results to me at their expense. I don't get a rake-off from the business, by the way. :) But it is a good place to get good quality patches inexpensively. Thomas ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net hapkido.4t.com "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 22:39:55 +0100 From: Roger Lewis To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] What is the Kukkiwon? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The Taekwondo school I trained in for a number of years followed Kukkiwon standards and poomse (taegeuk). At about my 5th gup our Master changed the curriculum to more "traditional" training including the Okinawan style Pinan forms, a focus on pressure point self defense, Arnis, while maintaining WTF style sparring. At 1st Dan, we continued with XTF forms. Over time, it proved to be a solid foundation for us as students of martial arts. However we weren't able to compete in WTF tournaments other than sparring since our forms were different from the competition forms and we were no longer taught the taegeuk poomsae. When testing for a Dan, students had the option of testing for Kukkiwon certificates in addition to the Dan from our school. I did opt for that 1st Dan Kukkiwon certificate, thohygh years after obtaining it, I realize I probably didn't meet the criteria (I think I read it on the Kukkiwon web site once). I've been training in Tang Soo Do for the past several years, adapting to the Korean version of the Pinan forms, Pyung Ahn, Bassai, NaiHanchi, etc. Other than Bassai, I learned versions of these at my prior school. I've enjoyed learning multiple variations of the same form/hyung, along with a diverse training over the years including TKD, TSD, Arnis, along with a little Judo and Aikido. In the end, you value your rank or belt by what you've put into it and how you strive to improve and move to the next level of martial arts. Roger Lewis 2nd Dan Tang Soo Do 1st Dan Taekwondo Ray Terry wrote: > > I'm not sure I agree, but then I'm not absolutely sure what the > > Kukkiwon teaches. > > The Kukkiwon is the World Taekwondo Headquarters (it says so on the Dan > certs from there :). Kukki-Taekwondo is the art that is homed there. > > > From my experience in the WTF, one can get black belt certifications > > from the Kukkiwon regardless of how one does the patterns, or even > > which patterns are done. > > The are standards defined, but given the extremely large and dispersed > nature of Kukki-Taekwondo they cannot check every student or even every > instructor. The instructor indicates on the Dan app form to the Kukkiwon > that the student has met all minimum requirements. > > As mentioned in my previous email, some instructors teach what they learned > coming up through the ranks. Thus they might not teach either of the two > accepted forms sets. Yes, I think that all Kukki-TKD students should learn > the primary forms set for gups (taegeuk), but some instructors are just too > lazy (IMHO) to learn the newer forms. They may make excuses that the older > forms are better, more traditional, etc, but imho all they are doing is > short-changing their students. > > > Do the instructors who actually teach at the Kukkiwon agree on what > > patterns to teach, and how to teach them? > > Yes. One can see these forms via videos from (or blessed by) the Kukkiwon > or by attending regularly held instructor course(s) at the Kukkiwon. In > the US the USTU also holds similar instructor courses a few times each year. > > > This is a serious > > question: I don't know what they do. I _do_ know that WTF > > instructors in Denver teach all kinds of different stuff, and all get > > Kukkiwon certificates for their black belt students. > > The WTF/Kukkiwon isn't nearly as militaristic as the ITF. That can be both > good and bad. Yes, one can probably find more variation in Kukki-TKD students > than in ITF TKD or in ATA students. > > > Does this happen at the Kukkiwon? If not, what do the Kukkiwon > > instructors think about it? > > Comments from others...??? > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest