Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 11:13:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #8 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Health_Problems?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 2. What's the difference between TKD and TSD (gaby noufaily) 3. Kukkiwon vs. ITF (Anders Torvill Bjorvand) 4. Kukkiwon standards (Anders Torvill Bjorvand) 5. Re: What's the difference between TKD and TSD (Ray Terry) 6. Hey Thomas (Braeswood Martial Arts) 7. WTF - Kukkiwon Standards (Dewitt, Garrett) 8. Re: Tae Kwon Do Won (SallyBaughn@aol.com) 9. Re: What is the Kukkiwon (SallyBaughn@aol.com) 10. snailmail threats (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:48:37 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Health_Problems?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....What type of health problems is he having?...." Apparently the most significant issue is Diabetes. There are any number of conditions attendant to this affliction. The number of seminars for each year seems to be declining though I am not sure just how all of these factors come together. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "gaby noufaily" To: Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 09:07:30 +0300 Subject: [The_Dojang] What's the difference between TKD and TSD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I asked my master once what is the difference between Taekwondo and Tangsoodo, his answer was tangsoodo is a hard style like karate and taekwondo is a hard-soft style. I checked a lot of websites they states tha taekwondo is a hard style but never said that it was a hard-soft style. So I am still confused and I need your help and assistance, Gaby NOUFAILY --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 11:00:46 +0100 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Subject: [The_Dojang] Kukkiwon vs. ITF Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At 15:00 07.01.2003 -0800, you wrote: >I guess this is correct. The Kukkiwon is the org that promotes a specific >martial art, Kukki-Taekwondo. Well, yes - but not in the same sense as the ITF. The suggested guidelines from Kukkiwon are very loose compared to the extreme uniformity of ITF techniques practiced around the world. And you don't have to follow guidelines. You could very well be promoted for dan certificates from the Kukkiwon performing Kung-Fu forms. Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand 2nd Dan "Taekukkiwondo" :-) --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 11:09:19 +0100 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Subject: [The_Dojang] Kukkiwon standards Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray Te4rry wrote: > > Yes. One can see these forms via videos from (or blessed by) the Kukkiwon I have several books and videos that are "blessed" by the Kukkiwon and they disagree on lots of things. They disagree on the following: - execution of basics - particularly huge variations in the stances - naming of techniques - small differences as to footwork and nuances in techniques in forms - some strikes become blocks etc. - different places for kihaps in forms - differences in the timing of forms - for instance, should keumgang be slow or fast ... Good or bad, you will not find this within the ITF. ITF is a style, but Kukkiwon/WTF is a family of styles - which is ok by me ... :-) Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand 2nd Dan "Taekukkiwondo" :-) --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] What's the difference between TKD and TSD To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 06:51:16 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I asked my master once what is the difference between Taekwondo and Tangsoodo, > his answer was tangsoodo is a hard style like karate and taekwondo is a > hard-soft style. > I checked a lot of websites they states tha taekwondo is a hard style but > never said that it was a hard-soft style. > So I am still confused and I need your help and assistance, Old style TKD is close to TSD and is therefore hard. New TKD is hard-soft. >From my limited exposure to ITF, I'd say it is harder than is Kukki-TKD. Thus one could easily find widely varying descriptions of TKD. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 09:11:34 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hey Thomas Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." I love this saying and wish more martial artists would take it to heart!!!!!!! Kat P.S. mind if I use it from time to time? --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:11:42 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF - Kukkiwon Standards Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Ray Terry wrote: Do the instructors who actually teach at the Kukkiwon agree on what > > patterns to teach, and how to teach them? > > Yes. One can see these forms via videos from (or blessed by) the Kukkiwon > or by attending regularly held instructor course(s) at the Kukkiwon. In > the US the USTU also holds similar instructor courses a few times each year. Hello Master Terry. I concur with your answer here as 100% correct. Being that I too was training in the 1980's, I also saw the TKD Hyung changes. I know that the WTF does in fact recognize the TaeGeuk Hyungs as their officials patterns for rank certification. Most of this was also known, in the 1980's by Master TKD Instructors, especially the Koreans. I do know that many of them did not make the switch from the Hyungs they were teaching at that time, until the early 1990's or later. At that time, if the Instructor was certified through the Kukkiwon, they could get their students the Kukkiwon certificates regardless of the Hyungs they were teaching. I was told by one of my Korean Grandmasters that "all Korean instructors were told that they must teach teach the TaeGeuk Hyungs and be certified through the WTF if they were to have any recognition through the South Korean World TaeKwonDo Federation." I was not present in Seoul when my Grandmaster and many other Koreans were told this, however, a few months after my Grandmaster returned from South Korea, he discontinued the Chang Han and the Chung Bong Hyung training. Master Garrett DeWit --__--__-- Message: 8 From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 12:39:48 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Tae Kwon Do Won Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Laurie wrote: << Is anyone here a memeber of the Tae Kwon Do Won? >> Their website can be found at http://www.ustw.org/index.htm Their mission statement: "The mission of the United States Taekwondo Won (USTW) is to meet four goals. First, the USTW will promote Taekwondo as a martial art. Second, the USTW will provide, for the first time in the United States, a uniform and equitable dan promotion standard and certification on a national and local level. Third, the USTW will fill a dangerous void in the martial arts in this country by creating and applying a uniform and adequate standard for certification of Taekwondo instructors in the United States. Finally, the USTW will develop a uniform dojang curriculum and develop dojang business operations seminars." The mission statement appears to be very similar to the mission and/or programs that can be found in USTU. Most of the member schools listed for Ohio (the state with which I'm familiar) are also members of the USTU. I don't personally know anything about USTW, but it's hard to argue with their stated mission. The only "problem" with a school belonging only to this organization might be that they may not be able to provide you with a Kukkiwon black belt should you wish to acquire one. If the school is also a member of USTU that would not be a problem; or if you have no desire to compete in Olympic-style Sparring on a national/international level, it would not be a problem. Hope this may be of some assistance. Sally --__--__-- Message: 9 From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:05:05 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: What is the Kukkiwon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dave wrote: << I'm not sure I agree, but then I'm not absolutely sure what the Kukkiwon teaches. >From my experience in the WTF, one can get black belt certifications from the Kukkiwon regardless of how one does the patterns, or even which patterns are done. Do the instructors who actually teach at the Kukkiwon agree on what patterns to teach, and how to teach them? This is a serious question: I don't know what they do. I _do_ know that WTF instructors in Denver teach all kinds of different stuff, and all get Kukkiwon certificates for their black belt students. Does this happen at the Kukkiwon? If not, what do the Kukkiwon instructors think about it? >> The Kukkiwon has established the Taeguk Poomse and specific Dan Poomse as the "standard" for receiving a Kukkiwon Black Belt. They have published a book and video which included the accepted methods of performing these poomse. There are no WTF instructors or schools - WTF is the international governing body for Taekwondo in the Olympics. In the US, USTU is the WTF affiliate, and is the United Stated national governing body for Taekwondo. Schools may register with USTU as may individuals, but that is normally for the purpose of being involved in Olympic competition. If you (or your school) are not interested in Olympic competition, there is no necessity for WTF association or affiliation. So far as Kukkiwon Black Belts, in the past anyone who was a 4th Dan Kukkiwon Black Belt could recommend that a student be certified thru Kukkiwon. (I have been told that procedure has changed and that currently only USTU is supposed to be allowed this privilege, but do not know specifics.) It is certainly possible that a Korean-born 9th Dan, for instance, might still be able to go directly to Kukkiwon with a certificate request and have it approved. There are relatively few actual Kukkiwon-trained instructors in the US (perhaps 25-30, just a guesstimate). The Kukkiwon "curriculum" as shown in their textbook and taught at the Kukkiwon is a relatively small part of the historic "art" of Taekwondo (I'm speaking here of TKD since about 1950). Most school owners include poomse from their Kwan affiliation, sparring classes, advanced sparring classes, etc., and many school owners also include training with weapons. IMO, the reason for additional offerings is that a school with nothing more to offer than the Kukkiwon training as prescribed in their textbook would not be able to survive as a business. I'm not sure this answered all your questions, but hope it may be of some assistance. Sally --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:06:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] snailmail threats Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To the fool that sent me the following from Louisville, KY via the US Mail: "Chubby Hapkido GM? Lies in TKD Times? You will pay for your Black Deeds!" Get it straight! That should be Chubby Hapkido GM wannabe from down Florida way. And if you'll get the PO Box number right, your hollow threats will arrive sooner. The number is 110841, not 110891. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest