Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:36:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #12 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Joan Lowney (Stovall, Craig) 2. Re: KMAI (Beungood@aol.com) 3. Re: hard vs. soft (K. Barends) 4. RE: TKDW (Laurie S.) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Lost_secrets_stuff_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. Re: The arrogance (Beungood@aol.com) 7. Re: (Beungood@aol.com) 8. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Proportion_and_such_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 9. TKD complete martial art (Dewitt, Garrett) 10. Getting better with age (Ray Terry) 11. Hard/Soft or in between (Rudy Timmerman) 12. RE: Age and survival (was: Hard/Soft or in between) (Wallace, John) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:17:05 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Joan Lowney Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Joni wrote, <<>> Ummmmm...I'm a little confused here. What exactly is the point you're trying to make? Help me out. Craig "I too focus on subject" Stovall --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:22:09 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: KMAI Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 1/9/03 7:00:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > KMAIA gospel You mean disinformation? hee hee hee --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 21:19:51 +0100 From: "K. Barends" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: hard vs. soft Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> So just a quick question, how does master West think he'll stay >> harder/quicker than the average (younger) attacker once he is 60, 70 >> or >> 80+???? > > Gm West is about in the above age group now. I, too, am quickly > approaching > it. As my grandmother used to say, if you live long enough you may > just > learn something... :) In that case you probably learned that you are not a quick as you used be anymore. But, because of the experience you have gained in the years, you might compensate your 'lack of speed' by (pffft, hard to express myself in English) some kind of sixth sense. As a response to master Hilland. The difference between the hard and soft styles are not in the end result. It's the way in which you get to the result that differs these two types of martial arts. IMHO, I think that you can follow the path of the soft martial arts for a longer period of time in your life. But in the end, it all comes down to (like you said) your teacher and ofcourse yourself. How many time are you willing to devote to your martial arts training? -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Laurie S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 15:24:44 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: TKDW Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeremy wrote: <<<>>>> That I don't know yet. I will have to ask. That will go on my list of guestions I still have. I'll keep you posted :o) Laurie _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:20:05 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Lost_secrets_stuff_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rudy: "......My personal take on this is that hard styles often (not always) block with force (usually linear), while hard/soft styles often (not always) deflect and trap (often circular). All of this is subject to the individual interpretation of the leaders of styles. For example, the Go Ju martial art, by its very name, is hard soft; however, most Go Ju practitioners I have seen in this area do not use soft applications. Perhaps evolution has erased some of the art. In the end, this is just my few pennies on a subject that is open to many interpretations....." If I can coat-tail on your comment I think its important to point out that this latter discrimination is a VERY significant one throughout MA training and does not get enough examination. To provide a simile' we could consider the evolution of sword in Korea, Japan and China. An earlier and what I would consider a more primitive aspect of sword is the intent to simply smash through the partners' defense with overwhelming force and mass. On the other hand a more sophisticated approach would be to accept the attack and turn it into ones' favor followed up with killing or disabling blow. Taking this into the area of MT hand we can see a similar dynamic. Many effective Southern Chinese boxing styles tend to deal with things on a "meat&potatoes" level. Many of the Chinese and Okinawan derivations use conditioning of various types just for this reason. On the other hand, however, a more sophisticated approach would be to accept the attack and turn it to ones' advantage and then finish it. This is what all the "muscle- memory" training focuses on. It is almost instinctive to hit back when hit. But, IMVHO, to train to instinctively turn or redirect an attack and then finish the altercation as one deems necessary is pretty high-level in my book, and this is where I draw the line between "soft" and "hard". FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:41:37 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The arrogance Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 1/9/03 4:01:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > So just a quick question, how does master West think he'll stay > harder/quicker than the average (younger) attacker once he is 60, 70 or > 80+???? > > I believe (and so I was told) that no matter how hard you train, you'll > become weaker/slower when your older. And there comes a moment when the > 'I'll hit you harder/quicker'-attitude won't be of much help anymore. > > Who taught you that, seems kind of arrogant. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:44:06 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 1/9/03 4:01:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > to Hapkido gospel on > Budoseek, I eventually stopped reading the Hapkido > posts there because they were so dominated by one > group (who would shout everyone else down) and also > because of the same group's constant > merchandizing/seminars/trips/etc. > > That group,of wanna be self promoted imposters has driven many from that forum. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:44:36 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Proportion_and_such_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jeremy: Thanks for your comments. I must say, though, speaking from personal experience the people that you would address such comments to do not respect the sorts of conventions you are espousing. I don't mean this as a rip--- just a statement of Life as Life comes together. You know that saying about "locks are designed to keep honest people honest? Same thing. People who actually respect the belongings of others will accept the presence of a lock as an aid to help them avoid making a bad, impulsive decision. The same goes for the sort of guidelines you are talking about. People who honestly respect the nature of other people will use social conventions to guide them towards not acting in a way out of proportion to whatever situation is presented. However, respect for social conventions only works for people who respect social conventions. For those who don't respect social conventions, no amount of preaching will make them. I used to comment regularly on this Net about why the Hapkido arts are in the mess they are with the sorts of people we commonly find ourselves discussing. The last few months have pretty much answered all my questions. Its been a mighty bitter pill to swallow as I have wanted to believe the better of folks. I think you have been a pretty great contributor, Jeremy and I look forward to reading more of your stuff. However, I would spend much less of my time giving bandwidth to the folks you are targeting, were I you. People who don't deal with others in the manner you mention don't need it, and the other type will never understand and consider such respect a sign of weakness. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:55:34 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD complete martial art Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gaby wrote: "Yesterday my master a 6 dan TKD told me that TKD is a complete martial art. Believe me I was surprised and confused"........ Hello Gaby. I have been reading these recent(WTF sport TKD)posts with some amusement. Back in the 1970's when I was training in TSD/Chung Do Kwan and Hapkido, I was always exceedingly impressed with the Korean martial arts and the Instructors. Since the mid to late 1980's, I have watched the "sport TKD" virtually destroy the intense Korean martial arts curriculum as it was once taught. The majority of TKD schools which I visit on my trips only teach specific "flashy kicks" and an extreme emphasis on sparring. Although there is a place for "sport TKD," I have chosen to continue with our intense curriculum and with the assistance of Grandmaster Rudy Timmerman I have even added to and "refined" our curriculum to have a more efficient and complete martial arts curriculum. Debating, arguing about which curriculum is best gets none of us anywhere. You have been around for a few years now and you too can see the differences and changes in TKD. Those of us Gaby who continue to "search and remain hungry for the real deal" in the martial arts community eventually stumble across the likes of Grandmaster Rudy Timmerman and Grandmaster J.R. West and our lives are changed forever. Best wishes. Master Garrett DeWitt Sixth Dahn - WTF certified. NKMAA member. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:26:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Getting better with age Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > In that case you probably learned that you are not a quick as you used > be anymore. At -only- 51 I'm not as fast as I once was (I was never very fast), but I don't think my quickness has been reduced all that much. There is a difference. Yet I'm sure my quickness will decrease over time, that is natural. But I will relate one fun experience. I used to spar on Sunday afternoons with Gm Cacoy Canete of Doce Pares fame. Those that know of his rep know that he was a great full contact stick fighter in his day, perhaps the best. He is now ~84. I was sparring with him up until he was about 78 or 79 and his age didn't stop him from kicking my buttocks most any time he wanted. And I was only one of many butts that he would kick on those Sunday afternoons... That is probably not typical, but regular practice over many years can accomplish amazing things. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 17:08:07 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hard/Soft or in between Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere writes: > Are hard techniques then anything that can lay you flat > on your back or break something? If that is true, then all martial > arts are > hard. So to distinguish between hard and soft is not really a good way > to > describe technique. I am afraid that, in trying to give a short answer to our friend Gaby, I stirred up more than I had bargained for:) In the age old question of hard v/s soft, I do not related this to how hard the strike is. I merely suggested that many (not all) people look at the comparison with linear and circular in mind at the same time. A soft strike can be every bit as devastating as a hard strike when the proper technique is employed, and I have seen JR do just that. In fact, at his last Winter seminar, I did a bit of a parking lot mini thing where we had several people use a soft palm strike to break cement blocks (and don't tell me that cement blocks don't fight back:), to investigate the soft palm strike a bit more in depth. Personally, I find that the soft part of this debate is becoming more and more of a sore spot with me. Ever since passing age 60, some of my best friends look right at my middle region when we talk about soft:) Who needs friends anyway:) In closing, I think our Dutch friend Klaas has not had the pleasure of meeting some of the Gray Beards on this forum. I can vouch for JR and some of the other aging souls who get on the mat in Jackson every year, we are not getting older, we are getting better:) If there is one thing I have learned in my 50 plus years of practicing, old age and treachery can do wonders with those who possess youth and "perceived" skill. You see, it is not the skill that matters, it is still getting on the mat after knowing you are past your prime that shows you have the heart of a fighter. Anyone who has ever been in a real fight knows that without the heart to look death right in the eye and smile, all the skill in the world does not help you. BTW, I heard they did a study on survival shortly after WW2. It seems that the powers to be were surprised to find that it was the old folks who survived, while those in their prime seemed to just go and meet their maker without much of a struggle. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Age and survival (was: Hard/Soft or in between) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:21:32 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Perhaps it’s a corollary to the old observation that "success is a habit". Maybe after you've lived for a while, you're just used to it, and less inclined to give up the ghost :) -JW (Touch of gray) -----Original Message----- From: Rudy Timmerman [mailto:kwanjang@sympatico.ca] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 2:08 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hard/Soft or in between BTW, I heard they did a study on survival shortly after WW2. It seems that the powers to be were surprised to find that it was the old folks who survived, while those in their prime seemed to just go and meet their maker without much of a struggle. Sincerely, Rudy _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.434 / Virus Database: 243 - Release Date: 12/25/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.434 / Virus Database: 243 - Release Date: 12/25/2002 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest