Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 07:51:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #14 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. hard vs. soft and age (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 2. Happy Anniversary (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 3. Gettin To Old To Fight... (Charles Veuleman) 4. Old man J.R. West (Wayne Watkins) 5. Re: TKD complete martial art (Laurie S.) 6. (no subject) (Rudy Timmerman) 7. Hard vs Soft (Randall Sexton) 8. Re: Arrogance (K. Barends) 9. hwal bup (Ali Alnasser) 10. And thus endith the lesson (Jeffery Dean Sr.) 11. Re: hard and soft (Klaas Barends) 12. Returning to the true philosophy of TKD (John-Lewis Lewis) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:55:56 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] hard vs. soft and age Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, my friend, you are getter close to it. In the summer of 2000, on Master West's birthday, Dr. Kimm He-Young led everyone in singing 'happy birthday' on our bus in Korea. BTW, Dr. Kimm with a karaoke machine is not something I think you see everyday. :) << To: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:59:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Happy Anniversary Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Congratulations to Master Geoff Booth. The 19th of January, 2003, marks the 10 Year anniversary of the Australian Hapkido Group. Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:38:57 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Veuleman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Gettin To Old To Fight... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net After reading the comments on West getting older and slower, I am reminded by something said by one of our older guys Joe Dupaquier, "I'll fight in the seniors division when I need a walker to get there" On a side note, Ray, it is pretty horrible that these email/snailmail threats and bulk crap mail keep happening. I hate to turn this all on you, but as moderator, is there anything you can do, maybe unsubscribe people who havent posted in a year or some other type of trick. I know this would only be a temp fix until they resubscribed, but perhaps it would help somewhat. Remember, this is your list, do what you have to do. You reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason I am sure. YITMA Charlie Veuleman ===== ------------------------------------- L. Charles Veuleman Natchitoches Karate Institute 204 Rapides Drive Natchitoches, LA 71457 318-356-7727 http://www.bluewavekarate.com ------------------------------------- --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:29:04 -0600 From: "Wayne Watkins" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Old man J.R. West Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It is my great honor to train regularly with Master West and this age discussion reminds me of a story he told me about 10 years ago. While Master West was serving with the Koreans in Vietnam he went on an R&R to Korea. He was taken to a dogang and was introduced to a Master whom he said looked to be older than dirt. After introductions and some conversation the "old" Master asked the then young Master West if he would spar with him. Master West graciously declined. The “old” man kept asking and Master West kept declining. The old master finally said, “Why you not spar with me I am old and my body is worn”. Master West replied, “It is not you body I am afraid of it is your mind.” The old man smiled and told Master West that his instructor had taught him well. As to Master West’s slowing down as he rapidly nears 60, I think Master instructor Dexter Mangum put it best. MI Mangum (6’ 3”, former college linebacker, built like a gorilla) was asked by one of our lower belts if he thought that could take Master West. MI Mangum thought just a moment and replied “I think he (Master West) is old enough that I can probably out run him now.” But if you still wondering how the old men do, come on down to Jackson in March and watch Master West and Master Timmerman on the mat and make up your own mind. When it is all said and done it is what happens on the mat that matters. These two old gentlemen are a sight to see, no B.S., no 12 step techniques, no weird looking expressions, no claim to being anything but what they are, HapKiDo players. Wayne Watkins wwatkins@holmescc.edu [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Laurie S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 23:52:38 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD complete martial art Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have to agree with Master DeWitt. I studied TSD/Hapkido. I was a TKD basher, because I thought it was all sport, not martial art. When I moved, I went to TKD and it WAS all sport. But then I found another TKD dojang that I have just joined, and it totally blew me away. I didn't think TKD had take-downs, joint locks, let alone self defense. Boy was I wrong! This dojang (in just my first two classes) did nothing but self defense and joint locks (except for a quick kicking drill thing in the first class). I will never doubt an art or style again till I see it or try it. Laurie _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 01:47:51 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > Many of the Chinese and Okinawan derivations use > conditioning of various types just for this reason. Hello Bruce: I think Klaas probably had a similar thing in mind when he mentioned getting slower in our old age. As we get older, we tend to use more brain than brawn (often for the very simple reason that the brawn has diminished with age). I'd like to use up a few lines to go back over my training and how it changed with the years. Be fore warned, it may take a bit before my post may even make a hint of sense. As I was a young skinny lad, I used to get my butt kicked all the time. That really was annoying. After some more lickings from my Dad, I soon realized it was no use complaining to him about these beatings, so I began training in Catch as Catch can and Jiu Jitsu (the only fighting arts other than Judo around back then) at age ten (without telling dad about this, he hated fighting) After training for a while, I learned enough tricks to lay a few beatings on my foes. That felt great! Indeed, it felt so good to get back at my enemies that I became somewhat of a bully. I stayed that way for quite a number of years, and I had a blast knocking the hell out of anybody that looked at me the wrong way. Mind you, this was in the days when kicking anyone was considered very lacking in manners, and you would normally help your foe up after knocking him down. Most of the time, you ended up being buddies. After enough fights, I noticed that many of the fights ended up with BOTH parties bleeding, and I learned to be a bit more careful. With this newfound knowledge, I also became a bit more careful about picking fights with the right people. Not that I backed away from anyone, I just stopped short of tackling anyone who looked at me wrong. I figured what the heck, looks don't kill. Not long after that, I realized that it was a bit easier on the body to talk things out before getting it on. Getting a bit older and wiser. Mind you, at this time, it was just fine kicking someone; in fact, many folks stomped your head while you were down, so the incentive to talk definitely had merit. Still, I was doing OK, because most of the time, I won my fights. See, fighting is OK, as long as you win the fight, it only become a real pain in the butt when you lose more than you win. When I hit thirty-five, I still defiantly registered for "open" competitions. This is where you enter a tournament where belts are just to hold your pants up, and all colors fight in the same ring. Not a good thing to have a black belt get beaten by a white belt, so there was a great incentive to win. This was especially true if you ran a school of your own and had your students watch the fight. Sanity finally hit home, and when I lost on points to a Golden Gloves boxer in an exhibition match in one of my own tournaments, I decided that competing with other "old guys" was not too bad after all. BTW, the boxer and I became great friends afterward. It seems I had broken his nose with a front kick, and that cleared up an old breathing problem for him. I just loved the old blood and guts tournaments where you were expected to "drive home" a point. After receiving a severe back injury, I became MUCH more careful about picking fights. In fact, I managed to talk my way out of quite a few (something I did not have the patience for earlier in life). By now, I had been in martial arts (and lived life) long enough to understand that hurting others was no fun, and getting hurt was even less fun. I even began teaching my students that fighting was not a good thing. The moral of this story is that age has a way of making us see the world in a different light, and your body has a way of teaching you that beating a Sisal covered post for hours on end does not help much when the other guy evades your strike instead of blocking it hard. (It took a while, but this is where I got to Bruce's post). At the same time, I began to see that some of the technique I had (prior to this enlightenment) considered fluff, actually could do some real nasty damage if done correctly. The good Lord even gave me several opportunities to try these techniques out in the street, and man they worked great in multiple attacks! OK, so I still did not back out of ALL fights. I am a slow learner:) Now I am older than I care to think about, I have found that reading Master Burrese's self defense book is something I should have done long ago. (I highly recommend it) I could have saved myself a world of hurt, not to mention the hurt I laid unto others. With law suits becoming an important consideration, you want to be careful even defending yourself. Even though hard techniques etc. are still part of our curriculum, I focus more and more of my teaching on using deflection techniques rather than hard blocking (which requires severe conditioning to be effective), and I simply let the younger folks do it the hard way. After all this is said, I could not have made these changes in my training and teaching if I had not studied an art that had ALL of these aspects contained within it, and today I teach many seminars in schools that find their art was lacking something. I guess this may give our friend Gaby something to ponder about "complete martial arts". BTW, most of these seminars I teach are to Masters who consider their style hard. I seems that many of these good martial artists feel that there is still something lacking in their curriculum. Perhaps something to think about when you join a school. Sorry for the long winded post folks, just consider it an old dude rambling:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Randall Sexton" To: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 20:57:40 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hard vs Soft Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Speaking of quick, I've seen how fast Master West can put a laser light on your chest! >>I wonder, with the risk of people finding me an arrogant youngster, how much time and effort Master West has actually put in the study of the so-called soft martial arts. So just a quick question, how does master West think he'll stay harder/quicker than the average (younger) attacker once he is 60, 70 or 80+????>> Randall Sexton www.LaughingHara.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:08:49 +0100 From: "K. Barends" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Arrogance Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> I believe (and so I was told) that no matter how hard you train, >> you'll >> become weaker/slower when your older. And there comes a moment when >> the >> 'I'll hit you harder/quicker'-attitude won't be of much help anymore. >> >> > > Who taught you that, seems kind of arrogant. Well, my sabunim ofcourse. His name is Ko Back Young, he lives in Incheon. I wouldn't consider him to be arrogant, just very experienced. http://www.hapkido.nl/index.php?mode=movies -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Ali Alnasser" To: Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:31:47 +0900 (KST) Subject: [The_Dojang] hwal bup Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This afternoon I met a hwal bup master in LA's Koreatown named YUN Jae Kwon and was wondering if anyone knows anything regarding his background. I'm thinking about taking a intensive course he offers. [TABLE NOT SHOWN] [TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN][IMAGE] --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Jeffery Dean Sr." To: Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 05:15:53 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] And thus endith the lesson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I believe that pretty well sums it up. Kamsahamnida Mst West Tang Soo Dean Sr. --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:42:39 +0100 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: hard and soft Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > A VERY well-known Master told me when I was still a > young 1st dan, "young men kick fast, but old men think fast, beware of > old > men".....JRW www.hapkido.com Why not focus on 'thinking fast' from the beginning instead of 'wasting' time on getting harder? Now that I read back this sentence, it's still not exactly what I mean, but it's hard for me to write about it in English and get my point across, I guess. Next time I visit the US we should just get on the mat and get to know eachother. We probably don't differ that much after all. > > Or maybe, just maybe, he thought , > It was something much larger than that. > As he got older, he learned, > He could get softer, > While being much harder,it just may! , > And on that day I'm told > His MooDo grew Ten sizes that day! An explanation would be welcome :-) -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "John-Lewis Lewis" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:41:04 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Returning to the true philosophy of TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, I think we must return to the traditional taekwondo and stop the competitions (read competition like taekwondo as a sport). Today the masters doesn't teach the traditional taekwondo, they teach only to win the competitions. The only good think about the competitions is that taekwondo has expanded in all the world, but what about the philosophy of taekwondo? A hit --> one point K.O. --> you win Is this the true philosophy of taekwondo? Of course not. Traditional TKD is to return to the true korean philosophy and concepts like honesty, courtesy, humility, respect, courage, generosity, loyalty and perseverance. Who teaches today TKD concepts like Do,Ki, meditation, Sam-Jae (the 3 ways), Kang-Yu ...? Regards, John Lewis. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest