Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:14:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #21 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Adaptability and counters in the martial arts (Klaas Barends) 2. Cross training and realism (Dave Weller) 3. True Warriors (Khalkee@netscape.net) 4. 1% (Ray Terry) 5. RE:cross-training and realism (adam flanders) 6. Re: Shedding before a rank test (Jose) 7. Limiting training (Rudy Timmerman) 8. Korean Tai Chi (Dr. Daryl Covington) 9. Re: True Warriors (Jason E. Thomas) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:09:12 +0100 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Adaptability and counters in the martial arts From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > adam you make a very valid point on the all martial artists should be > able to > block or counter anything that they might encounter in the street. just > knowing that info could help in your tournament fighting in the > defence area My thoughts on this are: if the principle of your MA is right, and you study the principles hard and train hard, this shouldn't be a problem at all. So don't go 'wasting' your time on studying all kinds of counter-attacks against all kinds of different attacks. Spend more time on studying principles and their application. The principles can be found in the basics of a martial art. -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 07:41:58 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Dave Weller Subject: [The_Dojang] Cross training and realism Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >FirstPe315@aol.com Wrote: JW - I may not be a graybeard (yet) but I would disagree with that statement. Your statement was very humble so I'll try to be the same. My instructor, a man of great experience and ability teaches his students (and I have found this true in my training and my training of others) that you train to deal with the top 1% of martial-artists. (No jokes about the .99 and up please.....you get my drift). I had just as well quit then. The top 1% of martial artists could mop the floor with me. A handgun, a fast car, or a ninja army might be my only hope. At 47 I'm not able, nor willing, to train to fight the top 1% of martial artists. My guess is the top 1% (whoever they are) do their martial arts full time, are relatively young, and in excellent aerobic condition. I run a business, have a wife, a girl friend (kidding, kidding!!) a 13 y.o., and some pets. Theses two lifestyles do not seem compatible. Thanks anyway, but I'll keep training as hard as this old frame will allow, and keep working towards being able to defeat the common thug (who has better things to do than train... like smokin' crack, drinkin' cheap hooch and chasin' fast women). If that top 1%er tries to mug me, I'll hand over my wallet. If he tries to harm my family I'll fight to the death(which might be thankfully quick)... Dave "Beard not grey yet, but there are certain joints that creak" Weller --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:12:21 -0500 From: Khalkee@netscape.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] True Warriors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What IsA "True Warrior"? How often and how many wars has he/she fought? . . . or is it all just imagination? Advancing in training one of the first things that one may observe is that the "less structured" (e.g., BEGINNING) fighter is more difficult to deal with than the more skilled/structured fighter. As a Tibetan-style Grandmaster once told me: "An intermediate technique can beat a basic technique. An advanced technique can beat an intermediate technique. A basic technique can beat an advanced technique." Ray, I think that I heard M. Mike Inay say about the same thing :-) Guess what, after 30 solid years of martial "pursuits" I train basic techniques for hours 3 times a week ;-) An "elite fighter" has the same vulnerabilities as the untrained fighter or incapable fighter. Understanding that goes a long way IMHO. I once went to a school for weapons training. My first day there they had me doing some intricate stuff ... looked great but by the time we got to step 3 or 4 of a technique I figured that was enough for me. Showed a guy how a Red Knife (like the Red Guns) could be brought across his neck from a resting postion behind my thigh ... even though he knew exactly what I was going to do. Guy was ex-SpecOps, Fed Marshall with lots of LEO/S.W.A.T. and "hot entry" experience, etc. The logic is inescapable. He neglected basics in pursuit of "higher level" techniques which would be costly or of no use against a crude attack by an unskilled assailant. I think it may be wise to think in terms of preparing to deal with the type of threat that you are most likely to face. How many criminal attacks are gonna be perpetrated by "True" or elite "Warriors"? OK, how many are going to be perpetrated by untrained, unskilled thugs? Now, which is most probable, and given the comparative probabilities ... which one should we prepare for? Preparing to fight the elite warrior (huh?) may be a big mistake, e.g., the street dude passes by and slashes before anyone knows that it is happening. The modern elite warrior is going to have weapons that the average citizen cain't buy these days, know what I mean? Elite Warrior may be someone whom none of us readers will ever see, i.e., he/she is the ghost of the battlefield(s) or somethin' like that :-) Sure ain't gonna be in the H.S. gym for the next tournament. __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:46:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] 1% Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net imho, the problem with training for the top 1% is that trained people frequently have trained responses. The people that -may- be the most trouble are those that come at you with a stupid response, one a trained person would never use or employ simply because it is just that, stupid. Yet it is that stupid response/action that may end up being the one that gets you killed. Moral of the story (imho)... train against both rank beginners and experts. Use experts that are both formally trained experts as well as the informally trained experienced. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "adam flanders" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:13:54 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:cross-training and realism Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>snip-JW>> >>The low-hanging fruit (so to speak) is to prepare your self defense >> >>scenarios to deal with a larger, stronger attacker using bum-rush and >> >>brute force techniques (IMHO). >>snip-J>> >>JW - I may not be a graybeard (yet) but I would disagree with that >> >>statement. Your statement was very humble so I'll try to be the >>same. >> My instructor, a man of great experience and ability >>teaches his students (and I have found this true in my training and >>my >>training of others) that you train to deal with the top 1% of >> >>martial-artists. Hello JW & J, Thanks for the response. I'm not sure if I communciated my question succinctly in the first place---in fact I know I didn't... My real concern stems originally from the continual debate in martial arts about "do" vs. "jutsu" in a martial art---I came across this originally in David Lowry's "Autumn Lightning". (I apologize for the Japanese terms since I'm not even sure if the Korean arts even make the same similar distinction...) As martial artists we go to dojangs for many reasons: to express ourselves, to find meaning and discover ourselves, to come as worldly possible in experiencing harmony and losing ourselves in the moment, to derive benefits like sleeping great, low-blood pressure, and staying in shape (as indicated by Master West) and--just as important--to practice and refine our techniques safely as a model for the real world. However, too many times a school can impose more and more unrealistic assumptions and unnecessary restrictions... (Ex. If a knife-wielder comes at you like A then perform technique B. Do this with your partner 3 times then switch. When your attacker punches [like a traditional martial artist], perform this technique...etc., etc.) I have heard this and then hear some teachers say that this practice constitutes the self-defense aspect of their school. My point is that many times these scenarios seem too artificial to me and could get the practitioner hurt if he/she were to perform this in an emergency situation. These same teachers rarely employ non-cooperative or resisting partners, sudden attacks to check "no-mind" execution and psychological fight/flight response. I'm sure everyone here is aware of the difference between doing a technique in the dojang and being forced into an altercation with the fear factor kicking in to play, your heart racing, your stomach dropping AND you're supposed to perform this same technique which of course you've done a hundred times in the dojang but just can't seem to remember how it's supposed to go... In short a little more real-world application (a little more jutsu with the do) in the arts goes a long way. Obviously this is a little more complicated and wouldn't be performed by beginners who are still trying to get the fundamentals down... *chuckle* Now I'm sure John you don't mean that thugs are too busy hanging out in bars all day to "refine" their own natural advantages and only throw haymakers. And I'm not necessarily saying, well if he comes in with Jiujitsu technique A I'll counter with my technique A. I agree, that would get very complicated very quickly. Instead, I'm referring more to overall strategy, especially during initiation when you're trying to prevent your opponent from using his best weapon, his ability to set in his preferred range of attack. Whether someone is formally trained or learning in the school of hard knocks they'll have at least one preference for their range of fighting whether it's tackling ,wrestling & headlocks, or punching, or kicking, or kneeing & elbowing, etc., right? As someone who has been in a few unfortunate altercations there have been a couple of times when I have found myself against a boxer and a martial artist (this was many years ago---I'm not proud of this---call it simple stupidity) so it can happen, which I don't think is news to anyone here like J and his teacher... So what drills or concepts does everyone do to practice or incorporate into their training regimen? Teachers, how do you prevent your classes with your advanced students from being a beginner rote session and encourage students to use the tools that work best for their body type, their innate abilities, or dictated by particular situations? How do you encourage your students and practice partners to be more dynamic and fluid? I realize this is a complicated question, but am curious as to everyone's thoughts and methods for addressing this... YITMA, Adam _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --__--__-- Message: 6 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Jose Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:16:54 -0600 Organization: kiyap.com News Gateway Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Shedding before a rank test Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Weight really shouldn't matter. If your balance is off, try to figure out what's causing it. What do you do with the non-kicking leg? Where are your hands placed when you do the kick? Have you practiced doing the run/spin without the kick? How's your balance on that one? As far as losing weight, you're still 2 1/2 monts away, so you could lose weight if that's what you want to do: - Get up earlier and run in the mornings, it gets your metabolism going - Work out harder and more often - Watch what you eat It seems obvious and easy, but it's not. Good luck with your test! -- Jose ------------------------------------------------------------------------ www.kiyap.com Online Community for Martial Artists View this thread: http://www.kiyap.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1172 --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:23:34 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Limiting training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JW writes: > If you ONLY train for "typical" > situations, then the elite warrior (who may not be > as evolved as you would like to think) will defeat you and you loose. Over the years, I have learned not to disregard ANYTHING that might teach me even the smallest point. I have learned from white belts. because they are not preconditioned in any way yet, and this gives them a sometimes fresh and unorthodox way of doing something that enlightens me in ways that may save my butt in the next confrontation. IMHO, working with the best in your class may hone your skills, but having an open mind to learn from anyone with something worthwhile to teach has benefits equally important. Never too old to learn has served me well:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:01:08 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Tai Chi Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There are several similar Korean styles that look similar to Tai Chi. Master Kang Rhee in Memphis teaches a style that seems to blend Tae Kuk (Tai Chi), Yoga, and another Korean Meditative style that's name evades me at the time. He has video available, or, if you are in the Memphis area, go by and spend an hour practicing with him yourself. It is quite an invigorating Experience. As a Dan Practioner of Hapkido, and the Pa Sa Ryu system of Master Rhee's, I find it a great addtion to my personal training. He even has a video available for the general public of instruction. grace and Peace Dr. Daryl R. Covington, Vice Pres, Karate for Christ International --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:02:52 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason E. Thomas" Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] True Warriors To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Speaking of this topic. Has anyone read "Living the Martial Way" by Forest Morgan? It addresses many of these issues. If some people have read this book, I'd be interested in discussing it. Khalkee@netscape.net wrote:What IsA "True Warrior"? How often and how many wars has he/she fought? . . . or is it all just imagination? Advancing in training one of the first things that one may observe is that the "less structured" (e.g., BEGINNING) fighter is more difficult to deal with than the more skilled/structured fighter. As a Tibetan-style Grandmaster once told me: "An intermediate technique can beat a basic technique. An advanced technique can beat an intermediate technique. A basic technique can beat an advanced technique." Ray, I think that I heard M. Mike Inay say about the same thing :-) Guess what, after 30 solid years of martial "pursuits" I train basic techniques for hours 3 times a week ;-) An "elite fighter" has the same vulnerabilities as the untrained fighter or incapable fighter. Understanding that goes a long way IMHO. I once went to a school for weapons training. My first day there they had me doing some intricate stuff ... looked great but by the time we got to step 3 or 4 of a technique I figured that was enough for me. Showed a guy how a Red Knife (like the Red Guns) could be brought across his neck from a resting postion behind my thigh ... even though he knew exactly what I was going to do. Guy was ex-SpecOps, Fed Marshall with lots of LEO/S.W.A.T. and "hot entry" experience, etc. The logic is inescapable. He neglected basics in pursuit of "higher level" techniques which would be costly or of no use against a crude attack by an unskilled assailant. I think it may be wise to think in terms of preparing to deal with the type of threat that you are most likely to face. How many criminal attacks are gonna be perpetrated by "True" or elite "Warriors"? OK, how many are going to be perpetrated by untrained, unskilled thugs? Now, which is most probable, and given the comparative probabilities ... which one should we prepare for? Preparing to fight the elite warrior (huh?) may be a big mistake, e.g., the street dude passes by and slashes before anyone knows that it is happening. The modern elite warrior is going to have weapons that the average citizen cain't buy these days, know what I mean? Elite Warrior may be someone whom none of us readers will ever see, i.e., he/she is the ghost of the battlefield(s) or somethin' like that :-) Sure ain't gonna be in the H.S. gym for the next tournament. __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Regards, Jason --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! 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