Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:16:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #26 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Difference between Tangsoodo and Taekwondo (gaby noufaily) 2. About Hwardo style? (gaby noufaily) 3. Silk purse my ear! (Dave Weller) 4. Re: dinosaur training (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 5. Karate in Korean Clothes (Charles Richards) 6. [Eskrima] Functional strength training for martial arts (fwd) (Ray Terry) 7. Death, terror in N. Korea gulag (Ray Terry) 8. Dinosaur Training (Steven Lefebvre) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "gaby noufaily" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:41:01 +0200 Subject: [The_Dojang] Difference between Tangsoodo and Taekwondo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A lot of questions but  no answers about the difference between Tkd and TSD,some tell me they are similar, what differentiate them are the forms and sport sparring,some tell me they are completely different,TSD is a hard style and very tradition,TKD is hard/soft style and it is a complete art.So I am confused That's why I would like to receive many convincing answers about this topic..Thank youGaby Noufaily ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "gaby noufaily" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:15:46 +0200 Subject: [The_Dojang] About Hwardo style? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I noticed when I was surfing the net about a korean style called Hwardo,his founder  Grandmaster H.Y Kwon located in centerville,Va, he is 10dan Hwardo,9 dan hapkido,9dan kickboxing,9 dan Taekwondo,etc... his website is www.hwardo.com . He has never mentioned who were their masters, does anyone know who were their teachers and if he really is high rank in these styles? gaby  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:42:07 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Dave Weller Subject: [The_Dojang] Silk purse my ear! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sims wrote yet another tirade on TKD: > >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject:Recipe_for_a_Silk_Purse >Dear Fred: > >".....How can a Tae Kwon Do guy learn and incorporate weapons into >his own Dojang......" > >You could do that, but then, you wouldn't be teaching "Taekwondo", would >you? Ever since people have come out of the closet and finally owned up to >formulating Taekwondo out of Japanese Karate, somebody, somewhere, has been >trying to put lipstick on this pig. **But wait, isn't Hapkido a style derived, or with significant influences, from another country as well? Would you care to have your Hapkido called a "pig"? This is just plain rude and doesn't begin to answer the question. >What, exactly, would be your intent in >this venture? Are you intersted in making the TKD you have a bit more >militant and a little less civil or sport oriented? **Militant? The military use GUNS. > Do you imagine that >flavoring your curriculum with Korean "stuff" will somehow make the art >less Japanese and more authentically Korean? **Again, you have posted many times about Hapkido's roots in Japanese systems. >Put another way, what is it >that is lacking so badly in TKD that people are constantly trying to stir >something into it? A lot of schools want to add Hapkido techniques. Others >stir in Judo material and call what they produce "hapkido".Still others add >liberally from Okinawan, Indonesian and Philipine arts. (So am I to >understand that not only is TKD so bland that it cannot stand on its own >merits, but the Korean culture does not offer sufficient material to >supplement it. One must actually go outside the culture to supplement its >own arts. >Well, THATS a bit daunting, I don't mind saying!) **Purity, eh? Are you implying that there is a PURELY Korean Martial Art that is still taught with NO influences whatsoever from any other culture? That's like calling french fries, French.. >If you want to add weapons-- why not add Korean weaponry. THERE'S a >thought! You have the whole MYTBTJ to draw from and there are even video >tapes of various interpretations for you. Why not invest in sword training >(and I don't mean with one of those Kendo-cum-Kumdo, IKF oriented schools)? >Now, don't expect the biomechanics to mesh very well with your TKD/Karate >stuff, but then, I wasn't the guy who came up with this silly notion to >begin with. ** I don't think Fred came up with it either. All he did was ask a question. >Of course, if you REALLY want to make a leap you can admit to yourself that >you have been practicing Karate in Korean clothing which is to say Japanese >traditions with a Korean spin. You COULD stop what you are doing and locate >a greater Korean tradition (Taek Kyon? Ssireum?) to invest in and start all >over again with that. It would take a lot of work, but it seems you are >already doing overtime trying to make yout TKD into something it is >apparently not. > >Best Wishes, > >Bruce **If you don't like Tae Kwon Do, or Karate, or any art besides what YOU practice, why don't ya just say so. "course your prejudices are quite apparent anyway, I just don't see any reason to be mean about it. Dave Weller (a Tae Kwon Do guy, whose weapons of choice are feet, hands, a .357 and a baseball bat) --__--__-- Message: 4 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:21:31 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: dinosaur training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "We only got about this far the last time, too.  :)   A bit more response over on the Eskrima-FMA list side of the house." lol...well its good you brought it up again, eh? ;). at least we got one fellow who tried it here. what did the FMA folks have to say about it? wanna post some o' their replies here? take care, mel Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2003 Annual Show Me State Open Martial Arts Tournament --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 06:22:10 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Karate in Korean Clothes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> If you want to add weapons-- why not add Korean weaponry. THERE'S a thought! You have the whole MYTBTJ to draw from and there are even video tapes of various interpretations for you. Why not invest in sword training (and I don't mean with one of those Kendo-cum-Kumdo, IKF oriented schools)? Now, don't expect the biomechanics to mesh very well with your TKD/Karate stuff, but then, I wasn't the guy who came up with this silly notion to begin with. Of course, if you REALLY want to make a leap you can admit to yourself that you have been practicing Karate in Korean clothing which is to say Japanese traditions with a Korean spin. You COULD stop what you are doing and locate a greater Korean tradition (Taek Kyon? Ssireum?) to invest in and start all over again with that. It would take a lot of work, but it seems you are already doing overtime trying to make yout TKD into something it is apparently not. <> Dear Bruce , I missed your posts! As ever they WILL generate a response, which spurs people (if the light is on) to think deeply about their own opinions, Bravo. Going Back, Moja Kwan (like TSD) is an ecclectic system combining concepts from from generally Korean arts,, but your post makes me think when I perform Hyungs/Kata, I have a tendancy to cling to the more traditional (Jap/Oki) flavor. This is interesting as I have made a rigorous attempt to use Korean Martial Arts as my base. My weapons would be a subset of what GM Timmerman listed, and my sword work tends to be Kum Sul instead of Kumdo. But your post makes me think deeply about how I apply things...for example My Dando works is much more similar to Master Terry's and/or Philipino MA. My joint locking perspective includes concepts from Chin Na like sealing the breath/blood, misplacing the bone, and ligament/tendon destruction. But most importantly my open hand technique includes Karate in Korean clothing. I guess there's not much Korean in my art after all, neh? Maybe I'm not teaching Tang Soo Do filtered through Jeet Kune Do concepts....maybe I'm teaching Jeet Kune Do in Korean Clothes.... Respectfully, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TangSooDo not sure if I'm Moja Kan now or Moja Tao? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 06:46:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] [Eskrima] Functional strength training for martial arts (fwd) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarded message: Im not familiar with dinosaur training, but it sounds like it could similar in philosophy, if not equipment, to Coach John Davies Renegade training. This contains lots functional lifts, odd lifts (like one arm curls with barbell, one arm deadlifts, kettlebells...), combo lifts, olympic style lifts etc. He has specialized programs (including GPP = General Physical Preparation and stretching) for several martial arts: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, boxing, wrestling, fencing and mixed martial arts. You can check it out at www.renegadetraining.com Most of it can be done with regular gym-equipment. Peace, Jonas _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 07:06:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Death, terror in N. Korea gulag Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Death, terror in N. Korea gulag By Robert Windrem Jan. 15 In the far north of North Korea, in remote locations not far from the borders with China and Russia, a gulag not unlike the worst labor camps built by Mao and Stalin in the last century holds some 200,000 men, women and children accused of political crimes. A month-long investigation by NBC News, including interviews with former prisoners, guards and U.S. and South Korean officials, revealed the horrifying conditions these people must endure conditions that shock even those North Koreans accustomed to the near-famine conditions of Kim Jong Il's realm. Its one of the worst, if not the worst situation human rights abuse situation in the world today, said Sen. Sam Brownback, R-Kan., who held hearings on the camps last year. There are very few places that could compete with the level of depravity, the harshness of this regime in North Korea toward its own people. Satellite photos provided by DigitalGlobe, which first appeared in the Far Eastern Economic Review, confirm the existence of the camps, and interviews with those who have been there and with U.S. officials who study the North suggest Brownbacks assessment may be conservative. Among NBC News findings: At one camp, Camp 22 in Haengyong, some 50,000 prisoners toil each day in conditions that U.S. officials and former inmates say results in the death of 20 percent to 25 percent of the prison population every year. Products made by prison laborers may wind up on U.S. store shelves, having been washed first through Chinese companies that serve as intermediaries. Entire families, including grandchildren, are incarcerated for even the most bland political statements. Forced abortions are carried out on pregnant women so that another generation of political dissidents will be eradicated. Inmates are used as human guinea pigs for testing biological and chemical agents, according to both former inmates and U.S. officials. Efforts by MSNBC.com to reach North Korean officials were unsuccessful. Messages left at the office of North Koreas permanent representative to the United Nations went unanswered. Eung Soo Han, a press officer at South Koreas U.N. consulate, said: It is a very unfortunate situation, and our hearts go out to those who suffer. We hope North Korea will open up its country, and become more actively involved with the international community in order for the North Korean people to be lifted out of their difficult situation. LABOR, DEATH, ABUSE NBC's investigation revealed that North Koreas State Security Agency maintains a dozen political prisons and about 30 forced labor and labor education camps, mainly in remote areas. The worst are in the countrys far Northeast. Some of them are gargantuan: At least two of the camps, Haengyong and Huaong, are larger in area than the District of Columbia, with Huaong being three times the size of the U.S. capital district. Satellite photos provided by DigitalGlobe show several of the camps, including the notorious Haengyong, for the first time outside official circles. Plainly visible are acres upon acres of barracks, laid out in regimented military style. Surrounding each of them is 10-foot-high barbed-wire fencing along with land mines and man traps. There is even a battery of anti-aircraft guns to prevent a liberation by airborne troops. Ahn Myong Chol, a guard at the camp (which is sometimes known as Hoeryong) from 1987 through 1994, examined the satellite photos of Camp 22 for NBC News. They were taken in April, eight years after he left. But he says little has changed. He was able to pick out the family quarters for prisoners, the work areas, the propaganda buildings. Looking at the imagery, Ahn noted what happened in each building: This is the detention center, he said. If someone goes inside this building, in three months he will be dead or disabled for life. In this corner they decided about the executions, who to execute and whether to make it public. This is the Kim Il Sung institute, a movie house for officers. Here is watchdog training. And guard training ground. Pointing to another spot, he said: This is the garbage pond where the two kids were killed when guard kicked them in pond. Another satellite photo shows a coal mine at the Chungbong camp where prisoners are worked to exhaustion in a giant pit. All of North Korea is a gulag, said one senior U.S. official, noting that as many as 2 million people have died of starvation while Kim has amassed the worlds largest collection of Daffy Duck cartoons. Its just that these people [in the camps] are treated the worst. No one knows for sure how many people are in the camps, but 200,000 is consistent with our best guess. We dont have a breakdown, but there are large numbers of both women and children. BEYOND THE PALE It is the widespread jailing of political prisoners families that makes North Korea unique, according to human rights advocates. Under a directive issued by Kims father, North Koreas founder, Kim Il Sung, three generations of a dissidents family can be jailed simply on the basis of a denunciation. NBC News interviewed two former prisoners and a former guard about conditions in the camps. The three spent their time at different camps. Their litany of camp brutalities is unmatched anywhere in the world, say human rights activists. Listening to their stories, its horrific, said David Hawk, a veteran human rights campaigner and a consultant for the U.S. Committee for Human Rights in North Korea. Hawk has interviewed many former prisoners in Seoul. Its hard to do more than one or two a day because theyre just so painful to hear: horrific mistreatment - all sorts of suffering, beatings to death, executions. Kang Chol-Hwan is now a journalist with Chosun Ilbo, South Koreas most important newspaper. His recent book, The Aquariums of Pyongyang, is the first memoir of a North Korean political prisoner. For nearly a decade, he was imprisoned because his grandfather had made complimentary statements about Japanese capitalism. He was a 9-year-old when he arrived at the Yodok camp. His grandfather was never seen again, and prison conditions killed his father. When I was 10 years old, Kang recalled, We were put to work digging clay and constructing a building. And there were dozens of kids, and while digging the ground, it collapsed. And they died. And the bodies were crushed flat. And they buried the kids secretly, without showing their parents, even though the parents came. The system appears to draw no distinction between those accused of the crime and their family members. Soon Ok Lee, imprisoned for seven years at a camp near Kaechon in Pyungbuk province, described how the female relatives of male prisoners were treated. I was in prison from 1987 till January 1993, she told NBC News in Seoul, where she now lives. [The women] were forced to abort their children. They put salty water into the pregnant womens womb with a large syringe, in order to kill the baby even when the woman was 8 months or 9 months pregnant. And then, from time to time there a living infant is delivered. And then if someone delivers a live infant, then the guards kick the bloody baby and kill it. And I saw an infant who was crying with pain. I have to express this in words, that I witnessed such an inhumane hell. TESTING ON HUMANS Soon also spoke about the use of prisoners as guinea pigs, which a senior U.S. official describes as very plausible. We have heard similar reports. I saw so many poor victims, she said. Hundreds of people became victims of biochemical testing. I was imprisoned in 1987 and during the years of 1988 through 93, when I was released, I saw the research supervisors they were enjoying the effect of biochemical weapons, effective beyond their expectations they were saying they were successful. She tearfully described how in one instance about 50 inmates were taken to an auditorium and given a piece of boiled cabbage to eat. Within a half hour, they began vomiting blood and quickly died. I saw that in 20 or 30 minutes they died like this in that place. Looking at that scene, I lost my mind. Was this reality or a nightmare? And then I screamed and was sent out of the auditorium. Prison guard Ahns memories are, like the others, nothing short of gruesome. Every day, he said there were beatings and deaths. I heard many times that eyeballs were taken out by beating, he recalled. And I saw that by beating the person the muscle was damaged and the bone was exposed, outside, and they put salt on the wounded part. At the beginning I was frightened when I witnessed it, but it was repeated again and again, so my feelings were paralyzed. Moreover, said Ahn, beating and killing prisoners was not only tolerated, it was encouraged and even rewarded. They trained me not to treat the prisoners as human beings. If someone is against socialism, if someone tries to escape from prison, then kill him, Ahn said. If theres a record of killing any escapee then the guard will be entitled to study in the college. Because of that some guards kill innocent people. President Bush told author and Washington Post Assistant Managing Editor Bob Woodward last year that he was well aware of the camps and the atrocities. That, officials say, partly explains why Bush insisted on North Koreas inclusion in the axis of evil in his 2002 State of the Union address. I loathe Kim Jong Il, Bush told Woodward during an interview for the authors book Bush at War. Ive got a visceral reaction to this guy because he is starving his people. And I have seen intelligence of these prison camps theyre huge that he uses to break up families and to torture people. Brownback, a senator with a reputation as a human rights advocate, thinks that the prison camps and abuses have for too long taken a back seat to nuclear arms and other Korean issues. It seems that what happened is that there got to be a complex set of issues, and people said, Well OK, its about our relationship with China, its about the Korean Peninsula, its about this militaristic regime in North Korea that we dont want to press too much because they may march across the border into South Korea. Brownback says the Norths nuclear program, its missile tests and generally unpredictable behavior has blurred a critical issue: I think people just got paralyzed to really put a focus on the human face of this suffering, he said. Lisa Myers, Rich Gardella and Judy Augsberger of NBC News and Michael Moran of MSNBC.com contributed to this report. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:01:08 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dinosaur Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Everyone, Brooks Kubik’s book, Dinosaur Training, is packed with great information. Although, there is really nothing new, as in programs etc, the material brings us back to the day when weight lifting meant developing real strength. The early days of Sandow, Hackenschmidt, Inch, Apollo, Evans, Hoffman etc, these men not only were physically symmetrical but also were incredibly strong. The idea of using basic lifts, utilizing freeweights, or odd objects and pure determination to train hard, puts many a personal trainers routines to shame. (Not that all personal trainers are not good) I started lifting when I was in my young teens and I have been lifting ever since. Even now there is even more fantastic information at our finger tips. For some old time manuals on physical development start at www.sandowplus.co.uk you will find a ton of information there. As well I would highly recommend www.renegadetraining.com , as well Scott Sonnon’s is another fantastic coach at www.amerross.com , I have a many more references if anyone is interested, just email me or post back to the digest. Also if you visit my website you will see over 80 training and conditioning drills, that I hope will help bring students to a new level in training. These will be released later this year in a book, and video clips on our site. Gumagalang Guro Steve L. www.Bujinkandojo.net _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest