Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:59:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #27 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Death, terror in N. Korea gulag (More) (Wallace, John) 2. Dinosaur training (Rudy Timmerman) 3. Welcome back (Rudy Timmerman) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Thanks,__Dave?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. Sows' Ears, and Horses' Behinds (Stovall, Craig) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Apples+Oranges=3DFruit_Salad=3F?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. 9th Dan in Kickboxing??? (Stovall, Craig) 8. Reasons and Brains (Ray Terry) 9. Re: Sows' Ears, and Horses' Behinds (Kakita Kentei) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Death, terror in N. Korea gulag (More) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:38:17 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This was a condensation of three interviews the author did with former prisoners and a guard from one of the camps. I read it yesterday and was struck once again by the depravity that humankind can sink to. Dubya was quoted once as saying "I loathe Kim Jong Il". For once, I couldn't agree more with him. Pity that North Korea isn't sitting on any oil. Apparently the mountains there are quite rich in uranium deposits however... http://www.msnbc.com/news/859191.asp?0cl=cR Interviews Guard: http://www.msnbc.com/news/859865.asp?0sl=-43 Child Prisoner: http://www.msnbc.com/news/859864.asp?0sl=-44 Adult Prisoner: http://www.msnbc.com/news/859731.asp?0sl=-41 To bring a TKD element into it, I saw a couple of Korean-language mpegs on a czech website that showed a North Korean TKD demonstration team. They were brilliantly talented - and now their motivation is even clearer. What if they were to fail...perhaps three generations of their families would go to the camps. http://sonkal.taekwondo.cz/download-en.php?cesta=/videa/13&soubor=TKD_ITF_in _Seoul_part.I.wmv http://sonkal.taekwondo.cz/download-en.php?cesta=/videa/13&soubor=TKD_ITF_in _Seoul_part.II.wmv The czech site notes that the server where the images are stored is in South Korea, domain name is voiceofpeople.org, which is an ROK apologist group for North Korea. caveat emptor -----Original Message----- From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 7:07 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Death, terror in N. Korea gulag Death, terror in N. Korea gulag By Robert Windrem --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 1/10/2003 --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:29:48 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Dinosaur training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kevin writes: > So if youy want to be able to pick up someone twice your size and > throw them > to the ground you might like to give it a try. Let's see, that would in my case be close to 600 lbs. I think I'll stick to the gophers:) Rudy --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:36:17 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Welcome back Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > But wait, isn't Hapkido a style derived, or with significant > influences, from another country as well? > Would you care to have your Hapkido called a "pig"? This is just > plain rude and doesn't begin to answer the question. Welcome back Bruce! I just knew you would liven up the Digest:) Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:42:35 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Thanks,__Dave?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dave: I would not characterize what I said as a "tirade". Fred asked a question not unlike the same issue championed by so many on many occassions on this Net. Excuse me for taking exception to watching Korean culture bastardized because it is more commertially acceptable to give people what they THINK they want, or only what one knows, rather than the REAL deal! You are absolutely right in that I don't have much use for TKD, but then I don't have a lot of use for MANY of the arts imported from Japan and passed- off as Korean culture. If I wanted to study Karate, then I would study Karate--- from a Karate instructor. I wouldn't go to someone who teaches their "version" of Karate. Personally I have never been able to understand how a culture such as Korea can moan about how sorely they were treated by the Japanese on one hand while working so hard to emmulate Japanese traditions on the other hand. I practice Hapkido and there IS a significant portion of that which owes itself to Japanese tradition, certainly. There is ALSO a significant portion that owes itself to CHINESE traditions but that always seems to get short shrift here. Whats up about THAT? (And BTW Don't get me started on "being rude". Maybe I just don't take having the Korean arts degraded as easily as perhaps some people do. At least I haven't blind-sided Fred with a mailed-in threat. Ya still want to talk about being "rude"?) And while we are mentioning semantics perhaps you might want to look up the meaning of the word "militant". Although we call them "martial arts" they are actually closer to "civil arts" ( or hadn't you noticed). Taekwondo, according to Gen Choi, was intended as a sport and was drawn heavily from Taek Kyon (a street sport) for its kicking techniques. Karate as taught in Japan was intended as a school program and as such had much of the "militance" removed. (It was only after later folks from Okinawa objected that reactionary movements worked to re-establish its combat under- pinnings.) What I hear much of the time is that people want more "muscle", more "combat effectiveness" in TKD, so they constantly stir in other material. Whats up about that? (Is there a reason you have to back up "hands" and "feet" with ".357" and "baseball bat"? Finally, there is the matter of "purity". Fine. There you have me. You are quite right there are no "purely" Korean, Japanese, Chinese or any other arts. Everybody borrows from everybody else. Whats your point? Am I to understand that you don't see the least little bit of FRAUD in taking one art and purposefully representing it as an integral part of another? Am I to understand that its OK to mix anything with anything and call it anything you want? Maybe I'm missing something, Dave. How about YOU tell ME where you draw the line? While you are at it you can explain to me how you will reconcile the disparate biomechanics, philosophies and cultural influences as well. OR--- maybe that just not important in a commertial society. As for that last cheap shot ("... If you don't like Tae Kwon Do, or Karate, or any art besides what YOU practice, why don't ya just say so. "course your prejudices are quite apparent anyway, I just don't see any reason to be mean about it".) once again you are speaking to the wrong person and missed the boat entirely. The issue is NOT TKD per se, but HOW its being handled or managed. Maybe I have reached a point where I have come to believe that being subtle about my feelings regarding how people deal with Korean culture is a waste of time. There are a host of people on this Net who have done a whole lot worse to others than have I towards Fred. Perhaps my mistake was taking a "live-and-let-live" approach or assuming that all people would appreciate respect ( even if they hail from Florida and tend to substitute girth for Character). I don't have a "mean" bone in my body, so I would strongly encourage you not to measure another solely by your own standards. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:05:17 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sows' Ears, and Horses' Behinds Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Congratulations go out to Mr. Sims. Once again he has bravely blazed a trail right over the deep end. He writes. <<>> It's no small irony to me that the original innocent question is being taken to task so passionately along the lines of thinking that Bruce is offering here. I think the irony may become quite apparent to all when one takes into consideration two facts. One, that Bruce is an outspoken Hapkido exponent. Two, the following excerpt taken from "THE HISTORY OF HAPKIDO" text that can be found from this list's FTP site. "In 1958, Ji moved his school to Joong Boo Shi Jang where he continued teaching until April of 1960. During this period, Ji began to add basic kicking and punching techniques taken from other Korean schools. In 1959 he decided that his system was sufficiently different from Choi's culturally patterned Japanese aiki-jiu jitsu to call it 'Hapkido'." So, there we have it ladies and gentlemen. The Koreans, being the flawless and omnipotent beings that they are, are perfectly capable of taking a non-comprehensive study of Japanese Aiki-Jiujitsu and stirring in a lil bit of good old fashioned "Korean" kicking and punching, and in turn create a "new" art that is "authentically Korean" while at the same time in perfect alignment with the objective and eternal ideals of "true martial arts tradition". But, woe be it unto the Freddie Bishops of the world who innocently ask, "How can a Tae Kwon Do guy learn and incorporate weapons into his own dojang?". Nay, this poor soul has obviously strayed from the one, true path of martial arts, and is forever relegated to the purgatory of eclectic bastardization. My heart goes out to these wayward individuals, and as a public service I'd like to offer a few guidelines that may help round eyes like myself to keep their martial careers between the proverbial ditches. 1. It is a scientifically proven fact that TKD cannot be practiced under the same roof as any weapons based art without serious detriment to the moral character and health of all individuals involved. This is true both when practiced separately and as a synthesis. I could go on in much detail, but suffice it to say that the biomechanics are incompatible, and practicing the two will make one's chi flow backwards...possibly causing the head to explode (no, the one between your shoulders). In addition, one may appear goofy due to the compatibility factor, and thus disparage the reputation of the arts as a whole if such practice were observed by "outsiders". As we all know, attaining "the look" is all-important, and is critical to the maintaining of cash flow. 2. One should always recognize the nationality of one's art, and be loyal to that nationality by refusing to practice anything that comes from an enemy nation (even if you were born in an enemy nation). This is true for both arts as a whole, as well as individual elements. Don't be mixing no Japanese punches with Chinese kicks, ya hear now? Note: these designations ARE NOT ARBITRARY. An art's nationality is objectively defined and set by way of the founder's genetic sponsorship having taken place within the established borders of an internationally recognized nation or principality, and is in no way affected by it's transplantation to a more commercially viable environment. In turn, founding an art can be accomplished in many ways, but the most respected and well-recognized method is to formulate an Asian name (it may only sound Asian to suffice) for your curriculum, and taking out a full page ad for seminars and video tapes in a major martial arts publication. (Note: Koreans are exempt from this entire guideline). 3. Never, ever, ever, no way, never think that you can expand or improve upon what you have been given. To strive for growth and improvement is such an...ughh...HUMAN trait. You must not question the knowledge that the ascendant masters have given you, and follow their holy example to the bitter end (especially if they are above 4th degree). Folks, martial arts are too damned important to be taken lightly. If you're not going to do it RIGHT (read: the way you were taught) then go spend your time with less important matters. Y'know, like working in an adult literacy program, or doing cancer research...whatever. 4. If you are going to put make-up on a pig then Mary Kay products are just hands down the best way to go. I've tried Maybelline and Maxfactor but they just cause a very nasty rash, and that just ruins the whole purpose. Believe me, there's nothing more embarrassing than taking a pig to the veterinarian at 3:00 am and trying to explain the lipstick and eyeliner (Note to self: if happens again, remember to take off the garter belt...lingerie on farm animals makes local authorities suspicious). But I digress! 5. Some people will ask the inevitable question, "Well, if the Koreans can take Aiki-Jiujitsu and make it a Korean art, why can't I take Judo or escrima and make it Korean as well". Jesus people...study your international law! There was a moratorium established in 1963 to prevent these types of international transplants of martial arts. It is commonly referred to as the Treaty of Sims. (Note: native born Koreans are exempt as a form of economic reparations for possible damages suffered during the Korean conflict. In addition, there is talk of having this retroactive for Brazilians all the way back to 1913. They're getting too big for their britches, and need to be stopped at all costs. Resistance is futile!!!). There you have it. Take it for what you will (and the sarcastically challenged among us will probably take it seriously). Disclaimer: this post was in no way meant to be disrespectful to Hapkido, Koreans, round eyes, pigs, or the good people at Maybelline. However, we reserve the right to fall short of the intended mark by way of the reader's interpretation as filtered through their own subjective reality, or (more than likely) due to the unfortunate smart-assed nature of the post's author. Craig "One Good Tongue Lashing Deserves Another" Stovall --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:14:05 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Apples+Oranges=3DFruit_Salad=3F?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Charles: "..... My joint locking perspective includes concepts from Chin Na like > sealing the breath/blood, misplacing the bone, and ligament/tendon > destruction. But most importantly my open hand technique includes > Karate in Korean clothing. I guess there's not much Korean in my art > after all, neh?....." Good to be back, thanks. However, even after I just got finished responding to Dave as I did in a previous post, let me surprise you and say that there might could be more "Korean" in what you are doing than you know. (WARNING: Difficult Thinking Material Ahead.) I have found that there is in many cultures around the world that have been run-over or abused by neighbors a certain approach that permeates everything they do. If you pressed me to identify the two most outstanding qualities of this approach it would be "isolation" and "practicality". You don't have to limit yourself to Eastern cultures. Take a look at the social dynamics of many of the Eastern European cultures and you find there is a distinct "parochialism" yet plain pragmatism to their way of doing things. Many people complain that Eastern European cultures don't let stangers in easily, and there is some truth to that. But there is also a practical side to the culture that comes from having to keep things simple and "no- nonsense" in order to survive. When emmigrants came to the US from Eastern Europe at the turn of the 19th century they got a bad rap for seeming to be stolid and slow-thinking. Fact is centuries of survival had taught these people to "Keep it simple" and they simply wouldn't be bothered with anything but "nuts and bolts." I see very much the same thing in the Korean culture. That said, lets see where the "Korean" is in your training. 1.) You say you tend to execute the kata more after the fashion of Okinawan tradition. I also hear that you tend to favor a Chin Na approach to locks and pins. A clue is that you have adopted the more Chinese side of the arts which is no small part of Korean tradition. I would venture a guess and say that you may tend to use re-direction and open-hand and tend to moderate abrupt, hard-striking tactics. 2.) In like manner I will bet that your weapons work probably reflects the softer MT hand approach in that you probably use more transitional moves. This is to say that rather than counter hard with hard, you tend to receive the assault, redirect it with a parry and then respond to the enemys' weakest point with only force necessary to accomplish your task. Do other arts share these characterisitcs? Sure. However, what makes an art "Korean" is not necessarily the curriculum but the MANNER in which it is executed. It is, of course, a very difficult thing to put ones' finger on and because of that people have often played fast and loose with mixing things together and calling it "Korean MA". And because Korean MA are heavily borrowed from larger cultures into a smaller culture there is not as great a chance to allow the character of the borrowed material to be lost in a large population as happened in China when a heavy Muslim influence to the MA was diluted by the sheer size of the Chinese culture. Still and all the Koreans have a unique manner in which they take in and amalgamate material and express it according to some indistinct uniformity. Personally, I think this latter point is worthy of MUCH greater discussion than we tend to give it -- to wit: "What makes a Korean Art "Korean"? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:38:21 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] 9th Dan in Kickboxing??? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gaby wrote, <<>> I'm so glad you brought this up. This character is one of the three guys that took out a full page color ad in TKD Times a few years ago proclaiming themselves as winners of the King of the World martial arts tournament. Amazingly enough, no one had ever heard of this tournament, or the three guys. As I recall, one was the speed champion, one was the power champion, and this Kwon cat was the sparring champion. It's one thing to claim a 9th degree black belt in kickboxing (never claims to be a champion, though), but it's pushing the limits of credibility to claim an 8th degree in kung fu...notice that he doesn't even list the particular style of kung-fu. The needle on my baloney detector is buried in the red. And how dare he mix kung-fu with TKD!?!? I will make sure that Bruce Sims hears of this! *shakes fist defiantly* Craig "I thought Leonardo DiCapprio was the King of the World" Stovall --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:33:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Reasons and Brains Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > material. Whats up about that? (Is there a reason you have to back > up "hands" and "feet" with ".357" and "baseball bat"? Reason??? The existence of a brain.?.?. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:19:33 -0800 (PST) From: Kakita Kentei Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sows' Ears, and Horses' Behinds To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Stovall, I thought this was very funny. However, I also must ask if all of these martial arts systems have become an agglomeration, overlapping and combining knowledge to form stronger systems, with some focusing on traditional style teaching with traditional style hyung, and some that go their own way, teaching exactly what the teacher wants, and carrying nothing except various techniques with none of the trappings. Would it be fair to say that an individual would learn an art, and when it came time to teach, changed subtly from what he was taught, based on his experiences would not diminish the art itself? I have been observing this list for a while and I am beginning to see why my own sabumnim does not emphasize the lineage of our system, instead discussing what specific teachers of his taught him, from various systems he's studied, including tai-sabaki (sp?), savate, and other arts. Is the lineage of the system truly THAT important, or is the actual doing of the thing most important? ===== Kakita Kentei Crane Clan Samurai * SCRUB * Duelist Extreme Games TO One Draw. Three Cuts. Eight Pieces. No Quarter. Any Questions? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest