Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:20:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #28 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Incorporating something new = new art? (J T) 2. RE: Principles over Technique (long) (Wallace, John) 3. Re: re: dinosaur training (Ray Terry) 4. RE: Lineage (Stovall, Craig) 5. Craig and Bruce (michael tomlinson) 6. Mixing the Arts (Alagna, Steven M) 7. Re: Real Hapkido and Hapkido Lineage (Chris and Cindy) 8. My pig's mascara is running, or, You're welcome Mr. Sims (Dave Weller) 9. Bruce is on the loose!!! (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:31:44 -0800 (PST) From: J T To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Incorporating something new = new art? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....How can a Tae Kwon Do guy learn and incorporate weapons into his own Dojang......"" Simple...He takes lessons, becomes sufficient and then implements it in his teachings. "You could do that, but then, you wouldn't be teaching "Taekwondo".." If you are teaching withing the guidelines of the WTF curriculm then you are teaching TKD. I don't believe WTF has ever restricted the teaching of weapons in a dojang. "Ever since people have come out of the closet and finally owned up to formulating Taekwondo out of Japanese Karate, somebody, somewhere, has been trying to put lipstick on this pig." Sorry Bruce but this is rude. First of all HKD comes from Japan as well. If I remember correctly HKD originally had no weapons in the system. So why did they introduce the cane and rope? They were not in the MYTBTJ. "(So am I to understand that not only is TKD so bland that it cannot stand on its own merits, but the Korean culture does not offer sufficient material to supplement it. One must actually go outside the culture to supplement" Is this going to be "my art is better than your art" type of argument? Please tell me it isn't, because that is what is sounds to be. I know of HKD schools that have implemented TKD techniques. Heck HKD never had any kicking techniques in the original curriculm taught by GM Choi, Young-sool. Yet 2nd and 3rd generation instructors began to add in kicking to the curriculm. So am I to understand that not only is HKD so bland that it cannot stand on its own merits? "If you want to add weapons-- why not add Korean weaponry. THERE'S a thought! You have the whole MYTBTJ to draw from and there are even video tapes of various interpretations for you. Why not invest in sword training..." First off the MYTBTJ is, if anything, an introductory manual at best with not a lot of depth or instruction. MYTBTJ basis its fighting arts from Chinese systems taught to the Korean soldiers. "(and I don't mean with one of those Kendo-cum-Kumdo, IKF oriented schools)" Isn't that the type of sword are you currently offer in your own school? By they way, even Haedong Kumdo is more chinese in nature. The point is there isn't a lot as far as pure Korean arts are concerned...Heck there isn't a lot of "pure" indengenious martial arts at all. "Now, don't expect the biomechanics to mesh very well with your TKD/Karate stuff, but then, I wasn't the guy who came up with this silly notion to begin with." Why not? The weapons and the system both stem from Japanese/Okinawin arts. So the stance work should do well. In fact it should mesh quite well. "Of course, if you REALLY want to make a leap you can admit to yourself that you have been practicing Karate in Korean clothing which is to say Japanese traditions with a Korean spin...." I am sure he can as much as you can say the same about HKD. "It would take a lot of work, but it seems you are already doing overtime trying to make yout TKD into something it is apparently not." Since when did supplementing your training become such a taboo? I am surprised to see this type of post from you Bruce since first of all you practice Kumdo Japanese Kendo with Korean flavoring, and secondly you practice a Japanese Jujitsu with Korean flavor added to it. Then you insult a TKD guy, actually TKD in general, for supplementing his training with weapons. Did I miss something? Do you teach HKD or did you rename it after you learned something new and added it to your curriculm? Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Principles over Technique (long) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:37:43 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Jeff: Since the others have expressed their opinions on the 1%, I'll defer to their arguments and simply note that I agree that its a good mental tool to shoot for a goal, whether its attainable is a different question. Aim for the stars and get to the moon, know'm'sayin' :) I think Ray's point about trained Martial Artist's having trained responses is particularly on target. I have a favourite sparring combination (lead left round kick, rear right side, left back kick) that I can rip off in no time at all, simply because I've sort of programmed a "macro" into myself. Now, if someone figures out that's what I'm going to do, they could devise a counter to it, and so on..making sparring the fun game that it is. On the other hand, the odds that I'd pull that one in a self-defense situation is not high, unless my attacker was practically helpless and I wanted to finish him off... The point is...and I do have one...that combination happens without thinking, except for the initial decision to throw it. There are other things I'm working on at the moment to train myself for self defense situations, such as defenses against a rear headlock choke, sprawling to avoid a takedown, wrist escapes, counters to shoves and so forth. Hopefully I'll be able to get them to the same level of automation that I have with sparring combinations. I think that above all, in a self defense situation that seizing the initiative from the attacker with surprise, then ending the confrontation as quickly as possible are the keys to successful escape. That being my strategy, the tactics for achieving it are what I work on in the "self defense" aspects of my training. The source of my humility is two-fold: As a I Dan black belt, I'm merely a student...there's a lot more for me to learn, and I'm not even contemplating being a dojang owner. My instructor is a full-time dojang owner, and is ranked in many arts - and is still a student himself. He doesn't claim to have all the answers, and I've seen the curriculum develop and change over the years, so I know that _he's_ still learning. So, I love to participate in this forum, but my commentary carries only the authority of my character. The other reason is I'm still a youngster at 33. I've only been training for a total of 7 years (3 when I was a teen, 4 recently). My world of Martial Arts is limited to 2 dojangs and master instructors, plus whatever I read here or in a few books and journals. To claim any sort of comprehensive knowledge would be disrespectful to those DD members who truly do have wide experience. That said, I'm truly flattered by Master West's initial response to my first reply on this thread. Hi Adam: Your criticism of "traditional" methods that instructors use for teaching self defense has some merit - if its left at the simple 3-step/2-step/1-step progressions that I'm thinking of. I think that those are very valuable training tools for introducing gup ranked martial artists to self defense. You learn about targeting (which I don't think sparring does very well), and when you're acting as the 'attacker' you can observe how your opponent's strikes look "coming in". JKD and escrima explicitly teach about "zones"; how to classify incoming strikes according to the direction of approach. A TKD student can develop for themselves an intuitive understanding about this from the traditional exercises (even better if an instructor can point this out to them). Naturally, once a TKD artist has achieved some degree of sophistication, the black belt program should build on the fundamentals taught by the 'step-sparring' drills, and progress into the real self defense applications of the martial art. The question of what a thug does to "train" is an interesting one...I'll defer to those who have either led the thug life (Tupac, RIP -grin-) or deal with them on a more regular basic to speculate on that. I'd guess they learn by losing fights, and win by aggression, surprise, and size. As an interesting side note, the press dug up the fact that some of the 9/11 goons had sought MA training. Hopefully at McDojang's. Perhaps we should encourage more Red belts to promote themselves to Eternal Grand Masters and open their own schools to dilute the possibility of a hijacker getting good training :P John Wallace I Dan, TKD Fremont, CA ........Previous messages............ Me: > The low-hanging fruit (so to speak) is to prepare your self defense scenarios > to deal with a larger, stronger attacker using bum-rush and brute force > techniques (IMHO). Jeff: JW - ...Your statement was very humble so I'll try to be the same. My instructor, a man of great experience and ability teaches his students (and I have found this true in my training and my training of others) that you train to deal with the top 1% of martial-artists.....If you train yourself to deal with the best and most skilled opponents, then everybody who falls under this shouldn't be much of a problem. If you technically perfect the "little things" then an individual "bum-rushing" you or the "weekend warrior" or "undisciplined fighter" or "black-belt mill individual" should by proxy be easy to deal with. Adam: Hello JW & J, Thanks for the response. I'm not sure if I communciated my question succinctly in the first place---in fact I know I didn't......However, too many times a school can impose more and more unrealistic assumptions and unnecessary restrictions... (Ex. If a knife-wielder comes at you like A then perform technique B. Do this with your partner 3 times then switch. When your attacker punches [like a traditional martial artist], perform this technique...etc., etc.) I have heard this and then hear some teachers say that this practice constitutes the self-defense aspect of their school. My point is that many times these scenarios seem too artificial to me and could get the practitioner hurt if he/she were to perform this in an emergency situation. Now I'm sure John you don't mean that thugs are too busy hanging out in bars all day to "refine" their own natural advantages and only throw haymakers. And I'm not necessarily saying, well if he comes in with Jiujitsu technique A I'll counter with my technique A. I agree, that would get very complicated very quickly. Instead, I'm referring more to overall strategy, especially during initiation when you're trying to prevent your opponent from using his best weapon, his ability to set in his preferred range of attack.... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 1/10/2003 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] re: dinosaur training To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:10:50 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > After 16 months of hard training, starting out soft of course, at a mere > weight of 150 lbs I was able to Farmers walk 237 feet with over 350 lbs in > under 40 seconds, Dead lift over 450 lbs., Bench over 250lbs, squat over > 300lbs, and of course pick up and carry a 200lb rock (yes my neighbors most > likely talked about me). Dude... You da man! Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:33:01 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Lineage Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kakita wrote, <<>> I think the art/substance/value is in the doing. The lineage is most important to those that need the validation of others in order to feel secure about the road they're walking on. That's the crux of the problem. We often substitute the experience/knowledge of others for our own because we're not confident enough with our own abilities and aptitudes. The ironic thing about many hard-line traditionalists is that they often worship people who they perceive as the paragons of tradition, but in fact those idols were rebels who struck out on their own path with one eye on the knowledge of the past and the other eye on their vision of what they wanted to "create". They are perceived as being custodians of "truth" as opposed to their true role as organizers of knowledge (both old and new). Craig Stovall --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:57:16 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Craig and Bruce Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Damn guys, now that was some good reading, the only way that could of been better is if I could somehow hook my laptop up in my bathroom and read you two gentlemens posts while I am in my "contemplative posture"!!,, I have many magazines in there that I read while in the optimal position but nothing as good as this stuff on the good old dojang digest,, God bless and pass the charmin, you both made some good points,,, Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Alagna, Steven M" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:04:48 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mixing the Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce stated: "Am I to understand that its OK to mix anything with anything and call it anything you want?" On the one hand I believe Bruce is right in that you shouldn't lead people to believe you are teaching say traditional TKD but the curriculum contains joint locking, throws, trapping, boxing, and wrestling. On the other hand, I see no reason why you can't teach a system that teaches you to slam & jam in the kicking, punching, trapping, clinching, and ground fighting ranges. I trained in traditional TKD and then TKD as a base with other elements added and now train w/ Kelly Worden in Tacoma at his Natural Spirit Gym working in concepts of FMA (empty hands, single stick, double stick, stick and knife, double knife), Wing Chun, Thai Boxing, Kuntao, JKD, Silat etc. We train attributes/tools and as the name implies in one's natural spirit, do what works best for you in the situation and environment or as Datu calls it Renegade JKD. If you are attacked, do you have room to zone out in the FMA style or do you have to shoot straight up their centerline as in Wing Chun. We believe in weapon trainging to bring out and better your empty hands. Datu Worden has a contract with the 1st Special Forces here at Fort Lewis to train the Green Berets in combative arts 3 days a week and have had the pleasure to attend that training weekly. It's amazing to watch him work "connecting the systems" for the Special Forces soldiers. Steve --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:35:06 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Chris and Cindy Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Real Hapkido and Hapkido Lineage Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The suggestions made are very logical and understandable, but it seems to imply that if the instructor is not part of some HKD organization then their background or Dan certificate is not worth much. I have a HKD Dan certificate from my GM and we are not part of any HKD organization, therefore I do not have a certificate from any organization. Does this make my Dan certification worthless? I personally have no question about the authenticity of what I have learned and am continuing to learn. Granted, there are TKD schools out there that teach a few simple techniques and call it Hapkido when it doesn't even come close to a true HKD curriculum. This certainly is not a good representation of the art. So, now comes some questions: What is real Hapkido? Does being a member of an organization make it real? My GM trained in the 50's and 60's under a master by the name of Lee, Ki Soon. Does anyone know anything about this person? I have a couple of pictures but no significant information about him. >Ask to see your instructors Hapkido certification,, if he will show you his >certification with no problem, then check out which organization he was >certified under, > >1) who did he study with >2) who did he get certified under >3) what organization is he under > >if he has a problem showing you his certifications or dan rank and gives you >an attitude about it than IMHO he is trying to hide something, like maybe he >really doesn't have any "real" Hapkido training and maybe just bought a >video,, nothing wrong with video's but don't try to say you are something >you are not,, > Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:43:53 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Dave Weller Subject: [The_Dojang] My pig's mascara is running, or, You're welcome Mr. Sims Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sims eloquently attacked me thusly: > >Dear Dave: >I would not characterize what I said as a "tirade". Fred asked a question >not unlike the same issue championed by so many on many occassions on this >Net. Excuse me for taking exception to watching Korean culture bastardized >because it is more commertially acceptable to give people what they THINK >they want, or only what one knows, rather than the REAL deal! **My dictionary defines tirade like this: A long angry or violent speech, usually of a censorious or denunciatory nature; a diatribe. Honestly, I think that fits your answer quite well. >You are absolutely right in that I don't have much use for TKD, but then I >don't have a lot of use for MANY of the arts imported from Japan and passed- >off as Korean culture. **Like Hapkido? >If I wanted to study Karate, then I would study >Karate--- from a Karate instructor. I wouldn't go to someone who teaches >their "version" of Karate. Personally I have never been able to understand >how a culture such as Korea can moan about how sorely they were treated by >the Japanese on one hand while working so hard to emmulate Japanese >traditions on the other hand. I practice Hapkido and there IS a significant >portion of that which owes itself to Japanese tradition, certainly. There >is ALSO a significant portion that owes itself to CHINESE traditions but >that always seems to get short shrift here. Whats up about THAT? **I dunno, what is up with that? Seems like you're arguing with yourself. I take the view that just about every Martial (or civil if you prefer) Tradition borrowed something from someone else, mostly because what they borrowed WORKED! You seem to be saying that Korean based systems based on other systems have bastardized Korean arts, and the only way to go to heaven is to study a REAL Korean art (like Hapkido) which you just stated came from Japan and China.. ???? HUH ????? I guess I am dull. >(And BTW Don't get me started on "being rude". Maybe I just don't take >having the Korean arts degraded as easily as perhaps some people do. At >least I haven't blind-sided Fred with a mailed-in threat. Ya still want to >talk about being "rude"?) **I never mailed you a threat. And sort of don't like that insinuation. And what the heck does this have to do with this discussion? >And while we are mentioning semantics perhaps you might want to look up the >meaning of the word "militant". Although we call them "martial arts" they >are actually closer to "civil arts" ( or hadn't you noticed). Taekwondo, >according to Gen Choi, was intended as a sport and was drawn heavily from >Taek Kyon (a street sport) for its kicking techniques. Karate as taught in >Japan was intended as a school program and as such had much of >the "militance" removed. (It was only after later folks from Okinawa >objected that reactionary movements worked to re-establish its combat under- >pinnings.) What I hear much of the time is that people want more "muscle", >more "combat effectiveness" in TKD, so they constantly stir in other >material. Whats up about that? **Since my dictionary was handy I did: Militant: 1. Fighting or warring. 2. Having a combative character; aggressive, especially in the service of a cause.(see: Bruce Sims) I stand by my earlier statement... The Military use GUNS. You can talk all day about the efficacy of a martial ( Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.) art in "combat" but if you do, that martial art better include some automatic weapons. Tae Kwon Do or any other Do , just ain't gonna cut it when the lead starts flying... >(Is there a reason you have to back >up "hands" and "feet" with ".357" and "baseball bat"? **I believe Master Terry answered that question quite well. Thank you Master Terry! > >Finally, there is the matter of "purity". Fine. There you have me. You are >quite right there are no "purely" Korean, Japanese, Chinese or any other >arts. Everybody borrows from everybody else. Whats your point? Am I to >understand that you don't see the least little bit of FRAUD in taking one >art and purposefully representing it as an integral part of another? Am I >to understand that its OK to mix anything with anything and call it >anything you want? Maybe I'm missing something, Dave. How about YOU tell ME >where you draw the line? While you are at it you can explain to me how you >will reconcile the disparate biomechanics, philosophies and cultural >influences as well. OR--- maybe that just not important in a commertial >society. It's difficult to argue with circular reasoning. On one hand you decry the watering down of the Korean arts by incorporating items from other styles/systems/cultures, yet on the other hand you tell me that your art, Hapkido, is a blend of stuff from China and Japan. I guess YOU need to reconcile that stuff yourself. I personally don't much care where it comes from. My concern is does it work? Does it improve me? There are 2 (count 'em) Martial arts schools in my little town. One is Karate (Goju Ryu or something like that) the other Tae Kwon Do(Korean Karate) . I study at the TKD school. The other school does many things quite differently than we do. IE: Hip rotation on round kicks, certain stances, musical forms, multi-colored uniforms. And other things are much the same... Our 2 schools did back to back demos at a local event, and even a casual observer would have noticed that these were NOT the same arts.. Similar, but not the same. My Master teaches things he has learned elsewhere, but I doubt I'll accuse him of watering down or bastardizing TKD. We call it LEARNING. > >As for that last cheap shot ("... If you don't like Tae Kwon Do, or Karate, >or any art besides what YOU practice, why don't ya just say so. "course >your prejudices are quite apparent anyway, I just don't see any reason to >be mean about it".) once again you are speaking to the wrong person and >missed the boat entirely. The issue is NOT TKD per se, but HOW its being >handled or managed. Maybe I have reached a point where I have come to >believe that being subtle about my feelings regarding how people deal with >Korean culture is a waste of time. There are a host of people on this Net >who have done a whole lot worse to others than have I towards Fred. Perhaps >my mistake was taking a "live-and-let-live" approach or assuming that all >people would appreciate respect ( even if they hail from Florida and tend >to substitute girth for Character). I don't have a "mean" bone in my body, >so I would strongly encourage you not to measure another solely by your own >standards. **Mr. Sims, you are obviously intelligent, well read and quite interested in Martial Arts and their traditions. I apologize if you think I was taking a "cheap shot", but in MY OPINION you were out of line in your response. You used Fred's question as a springboard to vent your frustrations at something else entirely. If you're mad at someone who sent you a letter, take it up with them. If you're ticked at someone in Florida, by all means have at THEM, but don't use an innocent question to belittle someone to satisfy your own needs. Live and let live? hmmm. Have a groovy day, Dave Weller Korean Karate student ( I Think, but maybe it's really Chinese, or.Tibetan or ???) --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:19:42 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce is on the loose!!! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My esteemed colleague writes, <<>> Ummmmm, where did the "commercial" angle come from? You are projecting, sir. Plain and simple. Fred didn't ask, "Hey, what's a quick and easy weapons system that I can add to my TKD in order to defraud unsuspecting students?". No, we're not talking about bastardizing Korean culture. In fact, who said that martial arts was such a cornerstone of Korean culture? You? I'd bet you a weeks salary that if you took a poll of 1,000 native born Koreans, and asked them to name the top 10 aspects of Korean culture that they were most proud of, less than 3% would have martial arts in their top ten list. Hell, I'll extend it to top 20, and still take the bet. Just another chance for you to take a Marxian potshot at the fuel which fires the engine that provided the internet for you to distribute your rants. <<>> Of course, this was mostly done by KOREANS!!! The same people who he loses sleep over because their culture is being bastardized by evil martial arts instructors (many of which are also Korean). Man, I swear to God...I wish I was Korean. I wouldn't get the blame for passing off Shotokan as a traditional Korean martial art, and I'd have you crying to the uncaring masses because that same "imported culture" was being "bastardized" and exploited by strip-mall TKD teachers across the United States. Whooeee, I'd have it made! <<>> Yeah, go study Shotokan. That's "real" karate. Y'know, Funakoshi's "version" of Okinawa Te? Next time someone asks me what I think about Hapkido, this is what I'll tell them, "Man, get outta here! That ain't nothing but a version of aiki-jiujitsu." <<>> Projecting. <<>> NOBODY CARES!!! Answer the question! You got called because you're implying that a bunch of people are out there practicing a mish-mash of "illegitimate" martial arts when in reality that just puts as many fleas on you, but instead of addressing your tunnel vision you start blathering on about how the Chinese are getting short changed everytime the end credits to "The Hapkido Story" start rolling. <<>> Well, on that we can agree (somebody call my therapist). Well said! <<>> He was being quaint. You should try it sometime. <<>> PROJECTION!!! Nobody said a flipping thing about defrauding anybody. <<>> I wonder if Ji asked himself this? But then again, nobody said anything about "mixing anything with anything", did they? <<>> LMAO!!! The sad part is that the line only exists in your mind, and everyone else is called to toe it. And how did Ji reconcile the disparate biomechanics, philosophies, and cultural influences between aiki and the Korean (read: cheap Japanese imports) arts that he integrated? I guess these things were just seamless parts ready to be integrated into a perfectly functioning whole. Or, does Ji have a martial arts Rosetta Stone that helped him out, or is this ability peculiar to him? No, you're the only one who wants to draw the line (and therefore preserve the comfort zone), but somehow you fall short of explaining just how and when this line is to be drawn. That duty belongs to others. I have to hand it to you...if Hapkido imparts the ability to redirect energy you've certainly incorporated it into your style of debate. But, OH NO!!! We have a conflict! Forensics as we know it in a manifest sense is mostly a Western tradition. How on earth do you ever reconcile the disparate cultural philosophies of...blah blah blah. <<>> In other words, I erred but I didn't commit murder. Apology accepted. <<>> How Hackworth figures into this is anybody's guess. <<< I don't have a "mean" bone in my body, so I would strongly encourage you not to measure another solely by your own standards.>>> And I don't have a "fraudulent" bone in mine. So, I would appreciate it if someday I decided to maybe...just maybe...incorporate some Kali, or boxing, or BJJ into a TKD class that I'm conducting...please realize that I'm not attempting to rape the Korean culture for my own economic self-interests. Maybe I'm just sharing. Maybe I'm being creative. Maybe I'm taking knowledge and putting it to USE, rather than roping it off in the museum of my mind where it's to be "respected", or (even worse) worshipped. Realize that we all walk different paths, not a one among us has a monopoly on the truth, and I would strongly encourage you not to measure another's martial journey solely by your own standards. There's a serious matter that a great many "martial artists" of today lose sight of, and I think it cuts right through to the very heart of this whole BS discussion (to which I have contributed enough silliness and energy). A martial art is not the end unto itself, it is the means. Too many of us treat the "vehicle" as if it were the "destination". When this happens, what was once a vibrant part of the overall process of living becomes a musty relic that must be preserved and protected at all costs. Who serves who? Does the culture serve the man, or does the man serve the culture? I know the answer to that question FOR ME, as well as when you substitute the term "martial art". Please keep your self-imposed limitations to yourself. I have enough of my own, thank you very much. Craig "Defrauding the Unwashed Masses" Stovall --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest