Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:32:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #36 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Jackson (Rudy Timmerman) 2. Where the money goes (Rudy Timmerman) 3. Re: Jackson (DrgnSlyr5@aol.com) 4. Association Memberships and Fee's (Todd Miller) 5. RE: Dan fees (Piotr Bernat) 6. Re: justify dan fees (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 7. Old gear (Ray Terry) 8. Re: testing fees (Brian Beach) 9. Association dues (Rudy Timmerman) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:47:05 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Jackson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere writes: > I think it is Alaine's turn to buy the first round! :) Jere R. I heard that same thing:) Rudy --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:59:04 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Where the money goes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Fred writes: > That is whole lot of money for a test. Where does > this money go, in somebody's pocket? I would like to > see where, exactly, the money goes, how its used and > so forth. How much does it take to heat the Kukkiwon, > how much does it take to live comfortabley in Korea > for the masters teaching and administering at the > Kukkiwon. As members of the orginizations, we are > consumers, and as such, I think we should know these > things! Hello Fred: I wonder if you ask the same questions from your baker, auto mechanic, etc. etc. Whatever gives people the idea that we owe them an explanation on test fees, when I see them throw away their hard earned money on all sorts of fluff that is known to be bad for their kids and their family. Just as I would not even think of asking you about your financial dealings, I find it hard to believe that some people expect us to take precious time to explain why a certain amount is charged. Does anyone ask their doctors, lawyers, bank managers, CEOs etc. how they arrive at their fees? Who do you think pays me for the countless hours I spend on the phone or emailing to answer the ever present questions. I am ALWAYS available to help. How much time that is not paid for are you willing to give your boss, just because it is after quitting time? As the head of an org. my job entails many things/hours that are never paid for, and I am willing to bet that the members of my org would rather pay the fees I set than have me look for another job. Several of them are members of this list, so I am sure they will answer this one way or another. Perhaps I will soon find out more than i bargained for:) Just for the heck of it, I'll tell you some true stories. One of my member school owners in a small town tried to charge $50.00 per month for his lessons. He found that the had a hard time selling this. To make up for the loss of funds coming in from lessons, he decided to double the test fees normally charged in this area. No problem selling that idea, and his club flourished. It is hard to believe, but people are quite willing to pay for certification rather than for the real thing -- good lessons???? In another place where I went to teach a seminar, I never had a chance to get on the floor. The people at this school in Quebec took up all of my time (starting with the instructors) taking orders for fancy uniforms, T-shirts, and other items. I simply could not believe it, they were more interested in LOOKING like a martial artist than training to be one. Needless to say, I never went back. In another instance, I taught a group of students for several years FREE of charge, because their instructor had to leave town due to work. When I decided to leave the org I was involved with, these folks decided to stay with the org I just left. The very next lesson they received was from one of my 4th dahns who also stayed with the org I had left, and he charged them $50.00 each for his seminar. BTW, my old 4th dahn did not want to go back, because it was a bother and did not pay well enough. So much for loving to teach the art:) After several years of NOT LEARNING ONE MORE THING, they were told to test for their next dahn, and they received it from this widely known org. Don't ask me how they learned the material they needed to EARN the rank, it was apparently not needed if the money was there. It was not until a few months ago that this group finally came back to me for help. It seems they finally realized that testing is not nearly as important as learning. Guess what, NOW I tell them they have to pay me, and they are glad to do so. I guess the moral of the stories is that perceived value can and does have some orgs charge more than is necessary; and, while it is totally in their power to do so, prices are driven by the same factors as in the regular business world. In the end, if an org. cannot justify its fees, their students or members will leave. Period, that's the way things work in our world. Fred, it seems that the questions you ask raise the hackles on some of the DD members. Don't let this discourage you from asking more. They are good questions, and they need to be asked. You are indeed doing a service. While I am only a small fish compared to some of the main orgs. I am willing to bet few, if any, of them will bother to answer. I hope you will take my post in the manner it was intended -- brutally honest! Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 01:25:42 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Jackson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 1/22/2003 5:48:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << Sharon, A job well done! >> Thanks. :) <> Works for me! Sharon --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 06:15:42 -0500 From: Todd Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Association Memberships and Fee's Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have to agree with Bruce on this one. I have paid membership fee's in the past and received NO benefit other than being able to say I am a member in good standing(Meaning I have paid my dues). The org. I am affiliated with now there are no assc. fee's and testing fee's are less than any other I have encountered. I might add I do adhere to the assc. curriculum. Todd Miller Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Piotr Bernat" To: Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:49:30 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Dan fees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > The Kukkiwon??? That dan fee schedule has not been given in the recent > exchange. I believe in the USA it is as follows, cheaper in less > affluent countries. In Poland the fees are exactly the same. I wouldn`t say it`s fairly reasonable under current economic circumstances here, but anyway much cheaper than the ITF. Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl www.taekwondo.prv.pl --__--__-- Message: 6 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:28:47 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: justify dan fees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "That is whole lot of money for a test. Where does this money go, in somebody's pocket? I would like to see where, exactly, the money goes, how its used and so forth. How much does it take to heat the Kukkiwon, how much does it take to live comfortabley in Korea for the masters teaching and administering at the Kukkiwon. As members of the orginizations, we are consumers, and as such, I think we should know these things! Fred" easy, trigger :)...i believe theyre quoting ITF , not WTF. the WTF ranking is a bunch less. as ray knows, i tend to complain about what the kukkiwon charges for dan certification (for foreigners in comparison to korean nationals). i guess i should be financially happy i'm not an ITF'r ;) take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2003 Annual Show Me State Open Martial Arts Tournament --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:15:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Old gear Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Attention USTU Members The USTU would like for you to bring your old taekwondo gear to the US Open in Las Vegas, Nevada. Please bring any head gear or hogu to donate to other countries that are unable to outfit their members with taekwondo gear. There will be donation boxes set up at the USTU registration. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:12:39 -0500 From: Brian Beach To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: testing fees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net on 1/23/03 6:01 AM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net at the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > And it does not help to have > folks at the other end of the spectrum asking exorbitant fees for nothing > more than showing up at a test and sitting behind a table for four hours. In my case the fee's are more than that it. It continues to pay for training. Our studio (hapkido) fee's are set up this way - when you join you sign up for a program for 2 years at an fee of 1500 or you can pay monthly 75 dollars for the 2 years (1800) after that no more monthly fees. The gup testing are $50 to promote from white, yellow, orange, purple and green, 75 from blue, 100 from brown and $500 to promote from red to 1st dan. ($2675 total by the monthly route) It usually takes 4-5 years to test for 1st dan. I have been training for almost 7 years in May. (call it 7 years for easier math) A rough estimate- studio fees - 1800 testing fees - 925 total - 2725 train for average 3 times a week for 7 yrs. - 1092 classes (3 classes * 52 weeks * 7 years) $2725/1093 = 2.50 per class Hell of a bargain I'd say (even if I paid monthly fees all along - 6.61 per class) Granted most don't stick around for that long. I think I read a stat that 1 out of 100 that take up MA make it to 1st dan. money: 1 : something generally accepted as a medium of exchange, a measure of value, or a means of payment: as a : officially coined or stamped metal currency (Merriam-Webster on line www.m-w.com) So, is what you get worth whatever you do to get your money? Its an exchange. Your choice. Take the long view. Everything has a cost - you choose one thing over another, you sacrifice the choice not taken. In pursuing one activity you sacrifice time that could have been spent pursuing other activities. You're either committed to the choice you've made or you're not. Hell, we could all be golf nuts - talk about expensive :P --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:19:12 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Association dues Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > To answer Freds' question I never have seen any benefit from all the > assn > fees, membership fees and testing fees I have paid in my life. That > doesn't > stop the regular requests I receive from various organizations to join > their merry little bands for one charge or another. Hello Bruce: I believe that you might have forgotten the fact that HAVING certification from some of these organizations may have assisted you in establishing yourself as a legitimate martial arts Instructor who has written more than a few handbooks. Who do you think would read material from, or go to classes conducted by, someone who is not recognized by one of these orgs. Just as prudent people would look for some accreditation when they seek medical advise, most prospective martial art students look for some type of accreditation from their Instructors. After countless years of visiting Dojangs, Dojos, Kwoons, and other gyms, I have never seen any that did not proudly display the certificates of its owner. I agree, some of these certificates were just so much wallpaper; however, just having it gave the operator of the school the guts to start. I too have had less than stellar experiences with some orgs, but this does not mean that I give a blanket zero to all associations out there. Unfortunately, just like you can purchase a Ph. D via some sort of mail order outfit, there are places that sell martial art certificates. Does that mean we should all quit going to College? I hardly think so. If my memory serves me correct, I heard that you were looking to test for a higher dahn not too long ago. Have you decided to just grant one to yourself instead? I would think/hope not; therefore, your statement on finding no value in any of the documents you have may not be quite accurate. Buyer beware perhaps? Most certainly! As far as inviting people to join my org. It will be a cold day in hell before I invite anyone. All those who have joined NKMAA have done so by their own request, and then I toss out many that cannot provide legitimate documentation of rank. I accept very few organizations' certificates on faith; in fact, I can count them on one hand. All other applicants must provide me with additional proof of skill and time lines. I go through all this bother, because I believe there are people out there who understand the value of having a reputable association attest to their skills or knowledge. Like at least one other association I know of, I too trusted applicants integrity when they applied. It did not take long before it became quite clear that you just cannot do this any longer. Am I sorry that I trusted some martial artist/orgs., you bet! However, I do understand that even people who obtained certification in good faith were screwed over by the org that provided it. This is why the scrutinizing of applicants has become quite a job in itself for me. It appears that today you can trust very few sources of certification, and some of those who USED to insist on quality no longer adhere to their initial goals. I guess in the end money meant more than integrity. This bring along an entirely new problem. At what point in time does some of this certification become less valuable, and which holders of dahn certificates went trough a fair quality control testing procedure? Does a certificate issued to a person (who worked his butt of to get) it suddenly have no value, when others who received certificates from the same org. later on can't even do a simple joint lock? At what point in time do guys like you and me decide that our certification is no longer valid, because we can no longer perform the test like we did when we first obtained the certificate? Let's face it, even a driver's license demands a reexamination at a certain point of aging. Should a martial art Instructor be exempt from reexaminations? When pondering the value of certification or joining an organization, it all boils down to one thing -- does the association and/or its certificates provide a benefit. If it does, the fee you paid should not be an issue. If it did not, blame yourself for not taking care in choosing a reputable organization. In the end, discussing the price of certification is meaningless. If it is no good, it is not worth a dime. If it has value, pay for it! Similarly, to discuss the membership fees charged by orgs is as useless as it is to discuss the price of gas. If you don't like paying the price of gas, start walking. When enough of us start walking, the price of gas will drop, you can count on it! Who among us is the first to get rid of the family car just because we don't like the price of gas? In the same token, why give a bad name to all associations just because some are bad news? Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest