Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:48:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #39 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Giving_it_everything_you_got.....?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 2. teaching full time, etc.. (jmchie@wideopenwest.com) 3. Assoc Fees (Dewitt, Garrett) 4. Help (John Merwin) 5. Jackson (Rudy Timmerman) 6. RE>doing nothing (MW) 7. Kibon or Kicho ? (Ray Terry) 8. Re: TKD.net spam (J T) 9. Associations (Rudy Timmerman) 10. Fee's Ramblin (Charles Veuleman) 11. Certification (Charles Richards) 12. Re: Jackson (Braeswood Martial Arts) 13. Kuk Sool Reading? (Geoff) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:51:13 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Giving_it_everything_you_got.....?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jere: "......When I started training in 1974 I now can state that I AM VERY GLAD that my teacher taught full time as I attended classes 6 days a week and my training stayed that way through college. Bruce is an old friend and I know he was talking about the McDojang's and McDojang Organizations, but the notion that teaching the martial arts full time is in any form or shape a negative one, is ridiculous. I now have been at the dojang for 14 hours today and I am going to call it a day......" Absolutely right, Jere! The point that I am stressing is that teaching is a "calling". Being a teacher is NOT something you do. Being a teacher is something you ARE. There is nothing wrong with being justly compensated for it. Where I see a huge problem is when a person represents themselves as a "teacher", or even as the head of an organization, and implies that one will receive fair value for their dues or tuition and such is simply not the case. I have seen a lot more schools where lower ranks are pressed into service as instructors albeit for lower ranks and beginners. I have seen a lot more organizations that trade a banner and a membership card for a couple hundred dollars and then nothing follows. And if that is not bad enough, how about the poor bastards who join an organization like the ITF or WTF and then have to put up with all that political nonsense I was reading about. And think about it--- they paid MONEY to get exposed to that grief! Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: jmchie@wideopenwest.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] teaching full time, etc.. Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:54:45 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Timmerman wrote in part: > auto mechanic, etc. etc. Whatever gives people the idea that >we owe them an explanation on test fees, when I see them throw >away their hard earned money on all sorts of fluff that is >known to be bad for their kids and their family. >Just as I would not even think of asking you about your >financial dealings, I find it hard to believe that some people >expect us to take precious time to explain why a certain >amount is charged. Does anyone ask their doctors, lawyers, >bank managers, CEOs etc. how they arrive at their fees?> I have a couple thoughts on this. 1. Doctors, lawyers, auto mechanics and bankers are all known commodities. People already know what kinds of things go into their fees--cost of education, of renting or owning the location to conduct their business, overhead of support staff, costs of supplies and equipment, insurance costs. That's not to say that martial arts instructors do not have those costs, just that the community is not as aware of them. 2. What gives people the idea that you owe them an explanation as to where test fees go? Because they are your clients, your customers and your students who you are asking them to pay you, that's why! Yes, they want the service, i.e. lessons, but just because they do does not mean that they should not be conscientious consumers! Whether that means they want credentials, or to observe a class or two before joining, or that they would like to know what their fee is composed of. Now we know that credentials don't always mean much, but that's just because the students do not yet know the correct questions to ask. Regarding the fees, you don't have to answer them, or you can answer them in generalities, or you can be specific, but they certainly have the right to ask. One of the biggest myths about attorneys is that we are all rich, because we have a high hourly fee. But if I have a client who doesn't understand why my fee is what it is, I will explain to them generally (not specific numbers) the kinds of things that my hourly fee goes towards. And that's totally ok, why shouldn't it be? They want my services, yes, but without any customers I would just be sitting on the street with a sign that said 'Will give legal advice for food.' 3. If you think you are wasting your precious time explaining fees all the time, why not just have a pamphlet on it? You don't have to tell them what you report on your taxes or anything, just provide as much information as you think necessary or are comfortable with. Then it's easier to if they have a question regarding a specific thing. M. Timmerman it seems from that excerpt above like fee discussions really rub you the wrong way, but as a businessperson people are not asking you about your personal finance! They don't want to know what brand of toilet paper you use. If you believe your expertise, experience and training justifies a higher fee and more in your own pocket, or you keep fees high to try to ensure that a high percentage of the students who sign up are serious, then that's your business and if people don't like it they can go elsewhere. If fees are reasonable it will be a very small percentage of people who complain, and you wouldn't want them as students to begin with. The question may also be valid if someone's fees are higher in a particular area than other schools. Not a fair comparison, maybe, but a valid question. My own instructor clearly does not teach for money. There are no testing fees, no contracts. I know he does not put much money from our monthly fee into his own pocket. I know his fee is reasonable for our area and for what I am getting in return, so it is not as important to me what parts of the fee go where. He has satisfied me with his level of knowledge. But if he was charging twice as much for the same service, I would probably inquire and I think I would be justified in doing so. I do not mean for this to come off as overly harsh, or to single out you specifically. I had some additional thoughts on J. Hilliard's additional comments, but I think I have covered them mostly here. Execept when he said he got flack for increasing his fees to $65/month. I am really surprised about that, was it a $5 increase or a $20 increase? If the increase was small, then the people giving the flack come off as petty to me. But if the increase is one of more than $10 or $15 a month, then I think people might be justified in asking about the nature of the increase if there is no difference in service. And you know that some people are more diplomatic than others in asking such questions :) Jim McHie, Jr. Student http://www.horizonmartialarts-wellness.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:37:54 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Assoc Fees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I also agree with some of Bruce's comments regarding associations. In my twenty plus years of martial arts training and prior to becoming a member of the NKMAA, the handful of org/assoc I was involved with gave me little or nothing for support. One Grandmaster in Detroit did give me some good follow up and some very good training, unfortunately, he left the area. Since becoming a member of the NKMAA, I continuously receive positive/corrective feedback from Grandmaster Timmerman. While initially training with him and his students, here and in Canada, he surprised me by accepting me and my students with our crude Hapkido techniques and set out to assist, guide and correct all of us to really learn what Hapkido and weapons training could be. When training in Canada at the NKMAA Headquarters, Grandmaster Timmerman has often "told me to take a break," however, he has never tired of training me and thus, I have never tired of the continuous repetition of techniques to further improve each one of us. With the NKMAA, we get very good/thorough training. We always receive what Grandmaster Timmerman says we will and he is "extremely truthful" with the financial side of his work. The only difference we seem to have is that I really do not believe he charges enough for what he does provide. With Grandmaster Timmerman and Grandmaster West, there is no standing around shooting the breeze and yacking. They both want us on the mat and they see the truth in each of us. They also teach and teach and teach if only we are willing to listen and learn. Thank You. Master Garrett DeWitt --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:10:24 -0800 (PST) From: John Merwin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Help Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At the CIMA Training Center, we use Kicho Il, Ee and Sam Forms for our white belts, I have been told that there are two more. If this is true could anyone help me out by sending me a link or copies of these missing forms? "Kicho hyung Sa (4th),and Oh (5th) Bu". Other names that I've seen the forms called were Kicho forms, Kicho hyung or poomse, Kee Cho hyung Bu, or Ke-Chos. I'm new to your group our school teaches Hap Ki Do,Kuk Sool Won and Tae Kwon Do. Thank for your time in reading my request John Merwin CIMA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:42:37 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Jackson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kat writes: > Perhaps we should find a friendly room and make our own drinks :) > See you all in March!!! > Looking forward to the DD pic and great training. I don't mind if you folks show up at my room again, but NO Tequila:) It is CC! Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: 24 Jan 03 13:46:10 -0600 From: MW To: the_dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] RE>doing nothing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net < for nothing more than showing up at a test and sitting behind a table for four hours> WOW! And all this time I thought I was supposed to observe, evaluate, and provide positive feedback to the testees(??). From now on I can just grab my glasses ( the ones with the eyeballs painted on them) and take a long nap. No insult intended Fred but there's a lot more to it than you think as many of the DD members have politely stated. michael whalen KSWnut aka: little fish/big pond --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:58:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Kibon or Kicho ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For the Ki-xxx forms used in MDK I believe that Richard Chun's MKD books show three Kicho and five Kibon forms. The Kichos are on an H pattern. The Kibons are one straight line. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:58:26 -0800 (PST) From: J T To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD.net spam Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just be aware for those who wish to join that list that you will be asked not to post to this one anymore or you will "jeopardize your membership with the TKD.net." I guess you have to be special to receive such spam from them. :( Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:27:09 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Associations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > To date I rarely have any idea of what is going-on with the > assn and actually get more info HERE than from the assn hdqtrs > regarding > whats happening. Hi Bruce: I have often pondered the "contact" situation. As I mentioned in my other post: "it will be a cold day..." I simply do not want to pester anyone. On the other hand, most of my members know that I answer their email almost instantly (unless I am away teaching or grading members). In addition, I always try to be careful not to be confused with those orgs that have a great marketing system of sending patches etc. This tendency to respect a member's privacy comes at the risk of having that member find me errand about keeping in touch. One thing I try to discourage NKMAA members to do, and that is to call me on the phone. With the number of members we have, I would need to hire a full time secretary just to take care of the calls. At the same time, the expense of an hour long phone call is just to great, and few people realize that I MUST take care of my students at home base too. NKMAA member phone calls are usually long winded, because there is so much to talk about when training long distance; however, these calls most often come at very inopportune times. Being polite and caring, I accept the calls, but is sure does take a bite out time for the things I had planned to do. Therefore, your concern is a real dilemma, and I have found email the best solution. I can take care of my members' concerns until they are satisfied. If you look at the time I reply to my messages, it is usually about 4 or 5 in the morning:) Like our friend Jere said in his post. There are not enough hours in a day for Instructors who care about their students, and we usually work for less than minimum wages when time v/s pay is calculated. But then, how do you calculate in the thanks you get from people like Travis and Master Trudeau, and yourself for taking time to write posts just to say thanks for listening or working with me. I remember working on a particular cane technique with you in Illinois; and you are right, working with you had nothing to do with the fact that you are not affiliated, it was enough that we are brothers in the arts. As I said before, folks looking for an organization need to think hard before they make choices, but this issue can be reversed. Those who love martial arts (and teach full time or run orgs) must make the same choices. When it becomes more of a heartache to do it, we will quit! Until then, it is our choice, and we should not lament over the times when misrepresentations are made about us. Believe me, you would take a black flip if you knew how hard it is to keep a good name in tact. With so many wannabees looking for some legitimacy, we are bombarded by false claims. At this point I must thank Ray for the info he sent me last night on yet another one of such claims. Well, it is too easy to go off on a tangent about these sensitive issues, and I want to thank Fred once again for giving us a chance to look into it. Sincerely, Rudy BTW, SBN Lim, I am sorry I was not available to take your call last night. I was testing students at another location. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 12:53:02 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Veuleman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Fee's Ramblin Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wow, I must say that I, even as a school owner, couldn't afford some of those fees. Hundreds of dollars for belt tests? wow. I have seen schools where this is the norm, some do well, some don't. I guess it all depends where your market is. To think, I have been fighting my recent rate increase for the last 3 years. Finally I had to do it. A whopping 5 bucks. I actually had some people not like the increase. I guess that deserves a 'wow' too. I like how some of the owners on the list have stated they give free belt tests. I could see it as a very attractive selling point. YITMA Charlie Veuleman ===== ------------------------------------- L. Charles Veuleman Natchitoches Karate Institute 204 Rapides Drive Natchitoches, LA 71457 318-356-7727 http://www.bluewavekarate.com ------------------------------------- --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 13:18:42 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bruce, Once again you and I agree. Hey, maybe I'm getting wiser in my old age, neh? When I left large international NGB "X" and forged out on the road of independent, I considered the life of an eternal independent 3rd Dan. The reality for my serious students would mean in less than a decade they would need to search elsewhere for certification, or I would have to "self promote" to supreme international great grandmaster. Not something I was excited about. One of my mentors (Master Allison) encouraged me to stay in contact with someone who could provide me training, mentoring, and at some point access to such certification. After a year of research I decided on GM West's organization. Relating to your post.. I was told organizational banners are available if I want one Patches are available if I need any Organization gup certificates are available and hand signed and mailed by the KJN within a day or two My 4th Dan is signed by GM West and M McHenry and of all my certs this and my 1st dan are the only two I really care about. I can now also count as mentors and instructors GM West 8th Dan Master Rich Hodder - 7th Dan TKD Master Dennis McHenry - 6th Dan TSD Master James Allison - 5th Dan HKD For all that you might ask what does GM West get? Well the fee for my 4th Dan (I don't remember how much it was), my seminar fees over the last few years in Jackson. Certainly not a lot of money for answering the phone or emailing me back same or next day whenever I need to be mentored. Sometimes, I just call him up to thank him for all he has done for me and my school, and yes he personally answers the phone. Coming from a large NGB it still seams odd to cal "HQ" and be talking to the KJN. But hey it works for me. For all of us that teach I encourage you to keep training, have a mentor, and for the sake of your students continue to advance in skills and certification. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TangSooDo __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Jackson Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:00:25 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I don't mind if you folks show up at my room again, but NO Tequila:) > It is CC! > Sincerely, Rudy Left my Jose Cuervo Family Reserve in the Soo with Olga. Maybe there will be some left when the boys and I return to our Sault home in September. Kat --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:04:06 -0800 (PST) From: Geoff To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kuk Sool Reading? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All, I am a yellow belt in Kuk Sool and I have a great interest in learning more about the art. I have bought the association text book but would like to go deeper if possible. I have searched everywhere but cannot find anything (beyond a few shallow articles in the various magazines). Does anyone in this group have recommendations for Kuk Sool specific books (preferrably) or good historical reading about Korean martial arts in general? Thanks! Geoff --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest