Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:24:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #40 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. GM JI SEMINAR (Allison Hapkido Academy) 2. ITF summary (Ray Terry) 3. Re: GM JI SEMINAR (Ray Terry) 4. Books (Rudy Timmerman) 5. Hapkido 1st thru 5th (michael tomlinson) 6. Where the money goes (Rudy Timmerman) 7. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Shopping_List_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 8. Old Friends? (FirstPe315@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Allison Hapkido Academy" To: Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:18:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] GM JI SEMINAR Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would like to send a special thanks to everyone that attended our seminar with Grandmaster Ji Han Jae held in Cornelia, Georgia. I would like to say to everyone that if you haven’t had the chance to train with Grandmaster Ji you are truly missing out. Grandmaster Ji spend four days at my school teaching me and my students the finer points of Hapkido. I had the chance to train privately with Grandmaster it he really opened my eyes to how the techniques are really suppose to be done. I am planning to have Grandmaster back down later in the year. Anyone that is truly interested in training in Hapkido please drop me a line. Again thank you to all the people who supported this event. Respectfully yours in Hapkido, James Allison www.hapkidosunmmokwan.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 09:12:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF summary Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Found the following at the Rayners Lane TKD site and thought it was a good summary on the situation there... LATEST DEVELOPMENTS General Choi unfortunatly passed away on June 15th 2002, leaving a legacy for millions to follow. What happens to the ITF now is still an on going thing. Just before the Generals passing, the ITF split into two factions, due to the politics. However, what makes this split really bad is that the two ITF groups are (were) led by two members of the same family. Namely the General himself & his son, Choi Jung Hwa. The reasons for the split are still clouded, with both groups giving different interpretations, so no comment shall be made here as to the "why's" of it all. Both seems to have different agenda's in regards to what direction Taekwon-do should be taking & what/how it should be taught. It remains to be seem now that General Choi has passed away, what position General Choi's most senior & trusted student, Grandmaster Ki Ha Rhee, will take. Further more, after the Generals death, members of the ITF were not happy with the undemoncratic process used to elect the new president, Mr Chang Ung from North Korea, as many felt the process should have been voted on by the ITF committee. This caused another split, those in support of General Choi's successor, Mr Chang Ung & those who wished a new president to be voted in (still yet to happen). Therefore there are 3 main ITF groups who directly claim to be the real ITF: 1. ITF Vienna-NK led by Mr Chang Ung 2. ITF Vienna led by acting president (I believe) Mr. Tom McCallum 3. ITF Canada led by the Generals son, Choi Jung Hwa Plus of course theres a 4th section of those that have chosen to get away from the politics altogethor, like Rayners Lane Academy & many other schools & associations, including the largest ITF group in the USA, the USTF led by Grandmaster Chuck Serriff, who have chosen to go independent of all the ITF groups. Although the "Canadian" ITF group is giving out lots of "opinions" & calling themselves "ITF" they are in fact a seperate entity & is entirely based on how much regards you hold Choi Jung Hwa in, as to wether ITF groups align themselves with him or remain under General Choi's original ITF, is still in the balance. The other ITF is split between which course each group wished to follow, General Choi's last word or the demorcratic process. There is slso talk of an ITF & WTF unification with ITF Korea! One things for sure, the water was cloudy before General Choi passed away & now has become even murkier. Considering the tenets of Taekwon-do, there is a lot of back biting and "bitching" going on betwen the three rival ITF's, The first break away group (ITF Canada) started making claims that senior Masters (such as Ri Ki Ha) joined them, when in fact this was untrue, so further facts should be taken with a pinch of salt until the dust settles (which may take a while). --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] GM JI SEMINAR To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 08:50:17 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I am planning to have Grandmaster back down later in the year. Anyone > that is truly interested in training in Hapkido please drop me a line. > Again thank you to all the people who supported this event. Master Allison, Great to hear from you. Yes, please do let the list know about any future seminars you may be hosting with Gm Ji. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 13:06:23 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Books Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Geoff writes: > Does anyone in this group have recommendations for Kuk Sool specific > books (preferrably) or good historical reading about Korean martial > arts in general? I can highly recommend GM Kimm's book on Kuk Sool. He also haas a number of other excellent books you might consider. He will be at the Jackson seminar in March, that might be a great time to get a signed copy. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:28:15 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido 1st thru 5th Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have a question about the Horizon Martial Arts site and some of the info there, Jim put the address to this site with his post so I checked it out, it seems I have seen this same pattern on numerous sites on the internet and it makes me scratch my head, the page states these facts about the instructor:>> Throughout the years John has training that includes: Earning first Dan in Tae Kwon Do 08/78 Received outstanding student award Assisted in classes, under supervision of Grand Master Lee Received fifth Dan in Hapkido 04/98 Instructed Youth classes for Hansens Self Defense Supports Hansens Self Defense as an assistant Organized youth demonstrations for scout troops Developed Horizon Martial Arts and Wellness Coordinated local "Kick Drugs out of America" Kick-A-Thon. Member of International Combat Hapkido Federation 09/02----->> Sounds like a good school, my question to the members is this. Why does said instructor give the dates of his first dan in Tae Kwon Do-1978, but ONLY gives the date of his 5h Dan in Hapkido--1998? Is it just me or would it be just as prudent to state which date it was that he recieved his 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Dans in Hapkido? I am only a 4th dan in Hapkido(2001)but I have every dan ranking and the dates at hand, plus every keup test and dates all the way from yellow belt, I recieved my 1st dan ranking in Hapkido in 1992, I am not trying to be arrogant, I just think it would be important to me if I studied with someone to know EXACTLY how long they have trained in their martial art and when they recieved all of their dan ranks.. is this just me or is this important to other people as well? Why would you automatically put the date of your 1st dan in TKD but only your 5th dan in Hapkido. Does he have ranking from earlier practice? Does he have dan ranks from 1st thrue 5th or does he only have a "Master's" ranking with no prior testing experience? These seem like questions to ask your instructor also along with the price of testing fees. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:55:14 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Where the money goes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Mc Hie writes: > He has satisfied me with his level of > knowledge. But if he was charging twice as much for the > same service, I would probably inquire and I think I would > be justified in doing so. When a prudent person comes to a dojang, I expect them to ask relevant questions (and that may include how much the fees are). I have no problem with that. I DO have a problem with having them ask how I spend it. For my fees, they should expect a service that warrants their expenses. If they pay for a Porsche, they should expect to pay more than they would for a Volkswagen. I believe the answer I owe them is what I will DO for them, not HOW I'm going to spend the money they pay me for that service. I further believe that this is all the information one needs to make an intelligent decision. BTW, I can't imagine anyone NOT realizing that owning/renting a building, heat lights etc. etc. comes any cheaper for a martial art school than for any other business. You are right that I get a bit hot under the collar when it comes to finances. Their questions should concern what I can do for their children, what I can do to help them become more healthy, what I can do for their self-esteem, confidence, conflict resolution, and the list goes on. The sheer stupidity of people asking me where I spend the money I earn galls me, when I see them light up another cigarette or buy a pair of overpriced running shoes just to keep up with the Joneses without giving THAT another thought. While the foregone mostly concerns running a school, many similar things in my association. I gave people free lessons (and still do for some) for more years than I care to think of, and more often than not have I been dumbfounded that the very same people who said they could not pay my fee did not think twice of purchasing yet another video game for their kids (and this is after listening to their complaints about their inability to get their kids away from that darn computer). I have come to the conclusion that free lessons are wasted on a large percentage of students. I have received more appreciation and loyalty from those who paid the regular fees -- always! Like you, I do have a brochure that gives prospective student some idea of the services I provide, and I do not suggest -- I DEMAND -- that they take at least two weeks of free lessons and sample ALL the classes. I do this, because too many parents just drop their kids off without even caring to check on what I do with their kids. I also ask every person that comes into my school to go and check all other schools in the area, and I do this with the confidence of knowing my services are the best value for the dollar. What is NOT included in my brochure is how I spend my earnings, and I am relatively sure yours does not either. I can clearly see that there are many folks out there who disagree with my views on this issue. I guess this is just one of the things that makes me glad of belonging to this digest. It is this place that brings the school owner and student together so both sides of the story can be heard. The opinions are on the floor, and people will be able to make better decisions with the information all of us provided in this discussion. In conclusion, I appreciate the fact that Ray provides me with a platform where I can vent my anger about the parents who dared ask me about money, but saw nothing wrong with dumping his child off at my school for a 5:00 pm class and simply forgetting about the poor child until the cops finally found them at 11:00 (and no, I did not charge them for the extra time I spent baby sitting their child). I am grateful to have a place where I can vent my frustration about parents who allow their kids to make decisions that we all KNOW to be bad. Alas, this goes along with the territory, and I am glad I was there for those kids to give them some guidance and comfort while mom and dad were out having fun. Sincerely, Rudy, Kwan Jang --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 14:24:48 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Shopping_List_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: I thought I would use Rudys' last response to organize a sort of shopping list of the sorts of things I would expect from an organization. Mind you, now, I am coming more from the position of someone who is teaching, and this list would probably be a bit different if I was merely speaking as a student who is responsible only to themselves. Here goes. #1. Mentoring. If I join an organization it would be because I had come to feel a kinship with the person and values underwhich that organization was founded. That said, I would look for guidance on how to use those values to consistently come out of the best part of myself. This isn't something you can learn as much as something that much be modelled by one person for another who then attempts to emmulate those behaviors as closely as possible. This is not a new concept. Traditional Korean martial arts have been based on this model for generations. The relationship between teacher and student is a sacred trust that is way beyond tuition and contracts. If you are wondering if you have this sort of relationship with your own teacher, let me tell you that if you have to ask--- you don't. 2.) Communication. If I join an organization I expect it to be responsive to me. When I say this I don't mean I get a newletter once a month. By this I mean that maybe I get a phonecall every once in a while, or a response to my e-mail or fax. And when that happens the leadership remembers little things like-- my name, on-going challenges and issues, my personal best and goals for my own training, current projects and short term intent and certainly my long-term purposes for being involved in KMA. And I am NOT talking about a circular of up-coming seminars with suitable fees. I am talking about communication with someone who is as intersted in my improvement as I am in supporting that persons' organizational goals. 3.) Fellowship. The world can be a pretty crappy place on occasion. I would join an organization to be around people who share the same general approach to things that I do. Now we are not all carbon-copies of each other. However, I can't see me paying dues to be told who I can mix with and who I can't. I don't want to join an organization which is constantly at war with--- someone -- for some reason. I also don't need to know that I am part of an Exclusive Club or a member of a select body who has THE Last Word on what an activity is all about. I don't need a cult leader or jesus-substitute. It WOULD be nice to be able to hob-nob with folks who have an honest interest in what they are doing (as opposed to someone who is looking for "recruits") and is pro-active in comparing notes with others. 4.) Validation. As folks get older maybe this last item gets less and less important. However, Rudy mentioned the need to have SOME kind of validation or recognition for one is able to do or say that they do. The organization can alway "sell rank". But what makes the validation important is who or what is behind that validation. If the authentification comes from a world class known personality that's always a plus. But I think, more importantly, is that the person authenticating a standing is a person of known integrity. "Integrity" is the word we use to identify people who work to keep as little difference between what they "walk" and what they "talk" as is possible. The more these two things come together in a person, the greater that persons' integrity. Certs from a person of great integrity beats one from a person of low integrity all the time. Well, I said that this was just a start and maybe others can add to this list. For me, these are the "biggies"--- the ones I can't do without. Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:57:40 -0500 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Old Friends? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Geez Ray, why don't you just say it. Glenn is a #$%@. He thinks he's a big fish in a small pond, unfortunately for him, he's a small fish in a big pond. I don't think he liked it when I told him that. Needless to say, thanks to that, you have to know put up with my politically incorrect rantings. Jeff In a message dated 1/24/2003 11:34:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > It appears that our 'old friends' are emailing anonymous > spam to folks > again hoping to find more subscribers. > > Just a heads-up... > > Ray --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest