Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:42:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #43 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Money matters (Rudy Timmerman) 2. Kuk Sool Books (Rudy Timmerman) 3. credentials (michael tomlinson) 4. SIN MOO HAPKIDO (michael tomlinson) 5. Prices again (Charles Richards) 6. Re: Grandmaster Timmerman's comment (Dewitt, Garrett) 7. Re: Books/Reading on Kuk Sool (Richard Zaruba) 8. RE: promotion...to Mr. Bishop (Eric Walker) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Req_for_slower_pace....?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 21:46:43 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Money matters Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Mc Hie writes: > I believe the instructor/administrator should only provide as much > information > as they are comfortable providing. I think providing at least general > information allows prospective students to make more informed > decisions, and > provides you with an opportunity to discuss such things as the > benefits of > belonging to a larger organization, if such applies. Hello Mr. Mc Hie: I too believe that we are much on the same page with this issue; however, I took the opportunity to get the school owner/org. leader's perspective on the issue. My reasons for not wanting to disclose such information has very little to do with my comfort on the issue, it has much more to do with the fact that I am very much opposed to such questions on principle alone. As Master DeWitt said in his last contribution on this subject, I probably DO charge way to little, so I am most certainly not ashamed of my fees nor am I trying to disguise them in a any way. That I give back 50% of test fees to school owners is none of the students' business, and neither is the fact that I charge about half the seminar fees other Masters charge. Am I stupid to do so? Maybe, but I know that school owners incur extra costs they otherwise cannot recover from attendees. I also know that their spouses will only go along so far when they need to dig into their pockets time and time again to cover these little unforeseen expenses. So, perhaps I want to make it possible for them to avoid such dilemmas. (In reality, I am on a quest to stamp out martial art divorces in order to starve out Lawyers:) All kidding aside, I simply believe that, among other things, no person has the right to look in my fridge, no person has the right to ask me about my love life, and no person has the right to ask my about my financial affairs. You see, I am from the old school where such questions were considered poor etiquette, and I like to teach my students good manners as an important life skill. The reason why I think it is an important lesson in martial arts is because I believe it is an important part of self-defense. Poor manners can cost you your life in some places. Perhaps I am wrong in my assumption that learning good manners is a valuable asset; but, I'll continue to make it part of my lessons because it is important to me, and I need to get enjoyment out of teaching too:) One of the reasons why I fell in love with martial arts was the philosophy; however, I soon learned that the tenets so prominently lavished on us by our Oriental Master Instructors were not necessarily observed by same. Sure, there are still quite a few (well, maybe some) around who have not let their integrity be displaced by dollar signs, but I believe that the younger generations will see less and less of that. We are on a crossroad in martial arts, and many old masters will soon have gone to the big Dojang in the sky. I hope to make some believers before I join them:) Please allow me to apologize for the many typos on my last post on this issue. I guess the heat under my collar got to my brains:) I also promise to get off my soapbox, and this is my last post on this issue. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 22:02:43 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kuk Sool Books Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > I understand that there is another set of books that now have replaced > the > original organizational materials but maybe these are only available > from > THE World Kuk Sool Won Assn. Hi Bruce: FWIW, I believe there are still three Kuk Sool books available from WKSA; however, you must have a valid WKSA ID# for the third one. having had the pleasure to evaluate them all, I would say that GM Kimm's book is the best for the money. Although all books are good, the combined price of the two WKSA books available would exceed that of Dr. Kimm's book, and the latter takes it to a higher rank level. The one missing thing in Dr. Kimm's book would be the Hyung, but unless Geoff intends to test for rank in WKSA that would matter none. IMHO, Hyung are simply a choreographed set of sports specific exercises (that should correspond with the techniques of a certain level), and ANY hyung that teaches the same principles to teach will do. The old Red book is not likely available anymore. Like you said, it was in dire need of an English speaking type setter and a good proof reader. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:57:40 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] credentials Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First of all thanks Bruce for seeing the exact thing I saw and stating it. I don't have a problem with anyone or anything at this dojang and the more power to them, they are probably great guys that work out really hard, it is just that when I see something that seems to me to be inconsistent with the set protocal of our art of Hapkido I usually comment on it. I tried to phrase my post as respectful and at the same time "suspicious" as Jim put it. Rudy was discussing the matter of test fee's and how he was scrutinized over every little penny, well I have been thru that also, and my thing is that when you open a dojang and state your credentials I believe that your overall history and time in the art should also be stated or at least be up for debate and scrutiny. People were saying that they had a right to ask about test fee's etc.. well they also have a right to find out who and where and for how long an instructor trained and how he recieved his ranking, this actually solidifies the costs that are charged in my opinion, Rudy's credentials are impeccable so in my opinion he has more of a right to charge what he wants because I am buying the "real" pig so to speak,, no filler or preservative added, that's all. The thing is is that I saw that the date of the 1st Dan in TKD seemed important enough to add but "only" the date of the 5th Dan in Hapkido seemed important enough to add,, made me curious as to why this would be? Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:10:03 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] SIN MOO HAPKIDO Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First of all I am sad that I missed the Sin Moo training in Georgia at Master Allison's dojang, I had bracketed those days off from work and was ready to drive up there with Master Nabors, unfortunately some old cartilage in my knee stopped me from making the trip,, dudes it stinks when you start getting old!!! My next big trip will be to Master McCarty's neck of the woods in May to get in on the Sin Moo training with Doju Nim Ji.. I highly recommend anyone who is interested to head up that way. I've known Mike McCarty for quite a few years now,, heck I was his throw dummy for his 5th dan test in Hapkido and he is a great guy. He will treat you good and there will be some great training with him and Doju Nim Ji,, hope to see some of you folks up there.. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 06:34:18 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Prices again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> I also ask every person that comes into my school to go and check all other schools in the area, and I do this with the confidence of knowing my services are the best value for the dollar. What is NOT included in my brochure is how I spend my earnings, and I am relatively sure yours does not either. <> Dear KJN Timmerman, My first rec center manager did not charge me anything to use the gym because she wanted a quality program for her youth (it was a low income area in SC). She did however refuse to allow me to give anyone free lessons, and discouraged me from going with $20 to $25 per month and went with $30. You and her are correct the struggling paying students have been more loyal and determined than any freebees I've given over the years. I don't give free lessons (except for my wife and son) anymore, and I don't offer any reduced tuition prices. To this day I can remember one mother who drove a used geo metro 5 dr. wagon, and paid me 2-5 days before the first of each month with 30 crinkled up one dollar bills. Her son never missed a class. Currently I have another student I almost gave my first "scholarship" to because the family was strugling financialy (usually 30-45 days late with tuition). They had peaked at about 90 days past due when they shoulded up at the school not in their 10 year old used sedan but a 2002 vehicle(you know about $25,00). They had taken over payments from an in-law. Let me just say I can understand your frustration with gups thought process...Anyway I wrote a short letter that politely said...You owe the school $xx in past due tuition. That week they came in with a credit card and paid 4 months past due tuition..... I also agree if I believe I have the best value for my services that the only explaination required is to sample my classes at no obligation and take some time to sample other comparables. Taken a step further I once asked a Nissan Dealer why I had to pay $1,000 in "additional dealer mark-up" He answered, becuase the Sentra is a "hard" car and I will sell this one within the week, but I can offer you a Stanza with only $500 ADM because the car is "soft" and moves slower. Not what went into the prices. In other words they had a number to adjust their gross price to what the market perceived as fair value. Going further, (here's where I'll get flamed) Master Stephen Oliver suggests raising your tuition until at least 20% of prospects question the price, and "firing" the bottom 5% of your school. What he's getting at is that some students simply take too much away from your loyal dedicated hard working students, and so if they can't afford your tuition no loss to you, even better send them to your competitor and let them have less proffit and more headaches. There is a "sport" big money school I send all my 2.5, 3, 4 and 5 y/o info calls to with a glowing reccomendation. Then I picture the poor bastard with 5 or 10 2.5 to 4 year olds for half an hour and smile to myself.... Funny this same school gets a referal when someone asks me why it will take 3 (adults), 4 (youth) or more years to earn a blackbelt in our school... For Charlie V. if you're following this thread, I've had two price increases in two years and no objections. Of course one was when we moved to a full time studio and the other was when we incorporated the no-test fees. Currently I have a few leads that have called asked the price and told me I'll get back to you, or that's too much for me, BUT THEY NEVER CAME IN to see what they would get for that price so I take them as not serious and probably only stick around for 3 to 6 months anyway. Right now my average student stays 18 months or more once they enroll so I'm not interested in anyone who wants to try Krotty for a few months. That's what my two free weeks are for. I think I finally have a new price structure for a 10% increase (for new prospects) Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TangSooDo __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:16:11 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Grandmaster Timmerman's comment Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Grandmaster Timmerman wrote: "I also ask every person that comes into my school to go and check all other schools in the area, and I do this with the confidence of knowing my services are the best value for the dollar." Hello Grandmaster Timmerman. How much more and what more does a student or parent want from a martial arts school? I concur one hundred percent with your statement. I have paid hundreds and even over a thousand dollars for some Hapkido Seminars just to spend the weekend sitting around listening to all of the "other master's great feats." With your seminars and/or workshops, I and others on this DD know full well that we "get out a thousand fold" for every penny we spend to attend and participate. It would not matter if your seminars/workshops were in an alley, if I could be there, I would be. I would only ask that "I could be the one landing on the boxes instead of the pavement." I know, "nice try..." Thank You Grandmaster Timmerman for your integrity. Master G. DeWitt --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:36:31 -0600 From: Richard Zaruba To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Books/Reading on Kuk Sool Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There are currently two sources for books on Kuk Sool Won. Dr. Kimm's Kuk Sool Won book ($89.00) which has the curriculum the way it was originally taught in the U.S. and the black Kuk Sool Won Volume 1 and 2 from the World Kuk Sool Assn ($59.95 each). If you what to buy Dr. Kimm's book call (225) 924-4054 with a credit card number. If you want to buy the WKSA Volume 1 and 2 call HQ at (281) 255-2550, or goto www.kuksoolwon.com to order on the web. Additional material including sword and staff handbooks and videos are available from the WKSA. Also, do not go through Amazon for the WKSA material. Last check they were selling Volume 1 for $79.95 which is twenty dollars more than it is to order it directly. Also, check E-bay a number of martial arts books come up there irregularly but at an excellent price. For what it is worth, I prefer the WKSA material because of little things found in the volumes, but Dr. Kimm's book is also a great resource. Sincerely, Richard Zaruba ____________________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba, Head Instructor Academy of Korean Martial Arts Kuk Sool Won of Grand Forks 1395A South Columbia Road P.M.B. 333 Grand Forks, ND 58201 Http://www.ksw-nd.com/ richard@ksw-nd.com Sch: (701) 594-6290 --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:48:18 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: promotion...to Mr. Bishop Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Fred, I certainly don't have the experience that many of the other members of the DD, but I would be concerned about my five year old son breaking boards with any technique. I have been taught that breaking can be dangerous for young children because their bones are forming and there are areas, growth plates (?), that are on the ends of their bones and damage to these areas can be detrimental to proper development. Side kick however, might be the safest of any breaking technique for him to be doing. I question breaking as a valid testing requirement for any white belt to advance any way. As far as saying something goes, why not ask his instructor about it? You can ask in such a way as not to be offensive. He should be willing to talk about it. If you're an experienced martial artist he ought to be open to discussing this with you. Such an interchange should also give you a good idea of his quality and ability as an instructor. I am only a student but I instruct our hapkido class on a regular basis, and I would not require a student, especially a child to do anything that they were afraid of doing, or that their parents did not want them doing. We don't take kids under twelve in our class, unless their parent is also training with us, and then usually not under ten years old. TKD is different I guess since it has become more of a sport style, it sort of becomes like baseball or soccer in some ways, and is attractive as a way for mom's and dads to get their kids out from in front of video games and TVs. In this respect I would suggest that you consider that the number of dojangs is necessarily increased lately, just like the number of soccer leagues. Consequently, the numbers of serious knee injuries in children have risen dramatically over the last decade, largely due to the inexperience of their soccer coaches. Safety should always be foremost on the minds of anyone that trains children in any sort of contact sport. My $.02 Eric --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:43:56 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Req_for_slower_pace....?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Geoff: Its great to see you so excited about your training but I am going to invite you to slowdown a bit and regain some focus. I am sure there are more than a great many folks here who are dying to help you out but you don't want to go off in too many directions all at once. Let me see if I can help. Dr. Kimm, He-young has published a number of books (more like tomes) on various subjects regarding Korean martial science. He tends to be a favorite of mine in that he usually has done his homework and has scads of support material and usually has even developed a relationship with many of the people mentioned in his books. I HAVE seen his books pop up on E-BAY once or twice but usually you need to get a copy of TKD TIMES and answer one of his ads there. He also comes to Master Wests' Internationales at least once a year. I don't know about you but getting a signed copy always seems to be an added perc for me. Kuk Sool has had a number of splits since its inception. I usually play it safe and just identify it as a style of Hapkido, but others can and will get very anal about lineage and association. For legal reasons there are resources available that relate to Kuk Sool but cannot represent themselves as Kuk Sool Won as that is a registered TM (I think. Somebody needs to verify this for me.) In my own area there are a few individuals who owe their heritage to KS but have long since left the original organization and then left the people that they left the organization with. This is a life- long study all by itself, including what constitutes arts that authentically represent actual Korean martial science. Finally, there is tons of material out there regarding KMA in general and the Hapkido arts in particular. The problem is that most of it is generally crap. The overwhelming amount of accurate information I have found has been through obscure sources such as dissertations and lesser known published works. If you are interested in getting the straight stuff find a copy of a book that is commonly agreed to be accurate ( for instance, DISORDER UNDER HEAVEN by Tong) and start chasing down titles and authors in the bibliography. While you are at it start collecting authors names and do seaches for whatever they have published. While you are at it don't neglect the historical context. For instance, you would be amazed at how quickly many oral traditions fall apart when you find out that, historically, things couldn't have come together the way "teacher" said. As you can see, studying martial arts is a whole lot more than buying a book to learn how to punch or kick. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest