Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 09:30:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #50 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: re: testing when YOUR ready (bmac2) 2. Time for testing (Rudy Timmerman) 3. RE: Testing when you`re ready (Piotr Bernat) 4. RE: Groin Pull (Lee Fisk) 5. North Korea (Ray Terry) 6. Belts (Berkland, Victor (US - Omaha)) 7. Too much sex (Chuck Luntz) 8. RE: Re: TKD.net spam (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Ettiquette_Thoughts?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 10. testing garbage (Gregory Giddins) 11. Testing TKD & Karate (bob smith) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 00:03:44 -0600 From: "bmac2" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] re: testing when YOUR ready Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Bobby, I have to say I agree and disagree with your post. You are certainly speaking from Black Belt perspective. As I have only trained in Korean Martial Arts I cannot speak on Shotokan. Being satisfied and knowing where you are in your training and only testing every year or so is definately BB perspective and a good one. As a school owner I can tell you it would be easier if we only tested once a year :) I believe goal setting is good for both adults and children. The under belt systems allows this to happen. Black Belt is the long term goal when you begin, with your color belts being your short term goals along the way. As adults we tend to forget how to set short term goals and achieve them. For most after college all goals become long term, and how many out there truly P.A.R.R. every year? For kids, it is a wonderful way for them to set achievable goals and gain the respect for reaching that goal. For some of us Martial Arts is a way of life, but for others it is a positive place to do some smiling, sweating and learning. I do not believe the "test jitters" come from the fear of failure, but just from "will I be able to preform under pressure", and isn't that a skill we need to test from time to time? Just my $0.02 for what it's worth. Kat Kelly Houston NKMAA ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:07:12 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Time for testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I repeated this philosophy to a "highly skilled" white belt (lots of > past > experience and all) the other week and I told him that he'll test when > I tell > him he's ready (this is barring financial and life issues that would > prevent > this from HIS standpoint - of which I am flexible and understanding). In our Dojang, a test is simply regarded as a tool for me to check progress, and I do it every three months. Everyone participates, and those who deserve a promotion (and are comfortable with it) receive certification and a belt etc. Some folks are simply scared to death, and they will put off testing forever if you let them. Since part of our training is to instill Jung Shin spirit in my students, that copout (being scared) won't do, I do not force promotions on those who have legitimate reasons for not advancing; however, I have some strict rules, and one of them is that "Professional White Belts" may not participate in tournaments. I may also insist that they move to a class that compares with their level of skill. It simply won't do to have a professional white belt train alongside a real novice, because it may make the real novice feel as though s/he is particularly dumb about learning martial arts. Other safety reasons may also apply, and each case would need to be assessed at its own merit. The feeling of "knowing it better than the Instructor" also comes into play, but I would need to check a lot of other things before I would come to that conclusion. If a student truly feels s/he knows everything, I have no place for them in my dojang. IMHO, such students will surely become a real pain in the butt sooner than later, and I have even sent some packing whose parents had that particular attitude. While it really bothers me to do the latter (because it is not the kids fault), I myself must get some pleasure out of teaching and don't need the headaches knowitalls bring me. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Piotr Bernat" To: Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 08:43:04 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Testing when you`re ready Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I'm curious again. I was "kind of" taught (through example > mainly) that YOU don't decide when you test, your instructor does. I was "kind of" taught > (through example mainly) that when your instructor tells you to test, you > test, because if you don't, you are (in so many words) telling > the you know more than they do. In my school, testing is done twice a year, plus an additional test for those participants of the summer camp that want to test. Most lower grades test on each occassion. Most higher grades select what test they want to take part in. Sometimes, a student comes to ask me my opinion whether s/he should test this time or not. Sometimes it happens, that an advanced student does not test, although I personally feel s/he would pass with flying colours. And to be honest - I have nothing against such decisions. Moreover, I`m glad that the belt is not the primary aim. I`m glad they make decisions on they own. I can be proud of a 12 years old student who comes to say that he will resign from Red Belt test this time and will try in June, because he wants not only to pass - he wants to pass it very well, as he still doesn`t feel 100 % with some things that are required (in my opinion he is already above the standard level of Red Belt). And I don`t think such attitude is in any way disrespectful to me. Regards Piotr Bernat www.taekwondo.prv.pl --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Lee Fisk" To: Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 05:39:52 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Groin Pull Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi All, > From: "Kevin Janisse" > Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 18:09:25 -0800 > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Groin Pull > Lee, > > To add to the many good responses to you injury. > DO NOT RUSH BACK INTO KICKING AND STRETCHING!!! > I made a serious mistake after tearning my groin while leading a workout at > the 1990 NKMAA CAN-AM CLASSICS tournament. Being extremely foolish, I > competed in the tournament and injured it further. Later that evening I could > barely walk. 4-5 weeks later I started to workout and strained it again. It > finally healed but too much scar tissue was formed to allow me to re-gain my > previous flexability. > Too make a long story short.....LET IT HEAL. > > Sincerely, > > Kevin Janisse > NKMAA Thanks to all who replied with good advice. I also went to my doctor who confirmed it was indeed a groin pull and told me it takes a long time to heal and that I need to baby the area which was hurt. He said it could take anywhere from weeks to months to heal. Seem like a good time to get back into my swimming routine once it feels good enough so that I don't go through pain getting in and out of the pool or during workouts. I had never heard of Arnica Montana and looked it up on the internet. This is something I will look into. Also this had nothing to do with watching anything X rated as Beungood@aol.com quipped. I hope they never go through one of these little blessings. Thanks, again, to all. Best regards, Lee Fisk (Tucson, AZ) --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 06:59:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] North Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Interesting reading... Reforms Turn Disastrous for North Koreans: Nuclear Crisis May Have Roots in Economic Failure. John Pomfret, Washington Post Foreign Service, January 27, 2003. http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/champion/65/alliance.htm Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Berkland, Victor (US - Omaha)" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 07:06:05 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bobby had some nice comments about belt testing and I wanted to expand on them. I wonder that the rank system has not lead to the decline in the martial arts in the United States. Case in point is the black belt TKD from another school that comes to our school and gets beat by a yellow belt in sparring. Or the student that wants to transfer their belts into another school without gaining the knowledge. How do you become a black belt; well just pay for the whole year at some dojangs. I chuckle at tournaments when I see 10 year old black belts. If they can't sit still in the black belt meeting without being disruptive, I doubt they are martial artist in their heads and heart. I experienced 8 year old black belts helping out the scoring in a tournament, that couldn't keep up with the scoring by differentiating between point red or point white. My point is that in our culture, achievement is measured by the belt color, and not by the knowledge. Schools begin to cater to the market's desire to progress quickly through the belts. And when this happens, the art is degraded. Knowledge through training. Yours in the arts Mr. Berkland (for the record 12 months training, 8th gup) This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Chuck Luntz" To: "The Dojang" Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 09:23:01 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Too much sex Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My understanding is that for good prostate health sex two or three times per week is best. Chuck --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD.net spam Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:13:20 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I can tell you, that's what happened to me. Though there wasn't a warning, just cut off of messages. Life's funny that way. Regards, Jason > -----Original Message----- > From: J T [mailto:jns1994@yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 1:58 PM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD.net spam > > Just be aware for those who wish to join that list > that you will be asked not to post to this one anymore > or you will "jeopardize your membership with the > TKD.net." > > I guess you have to be special to receive such spam > from them. :( > > Jeremy > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:12:29 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Ettiquette_Thoughts?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bobby: Thanks for your thoughts on testing. I wanted to comment on just a single point that you brought up--- maybe just to give an alternate way of looking at something. In your post you mention "....> In my experience,students test when the instructor arranges for a > testing. I would think it would be bad manners to > even bring up the subject of testing before the > instructor does, or to refuse to test when the > instructor desires that you test......" I have a pretty decent appreciation for both Japanese culture and Confucian order. One of the things that I have little appreciation for is the manner in which "good manners" is used to restrain a student from coming out of the best part of themselves. In my experience "good manners" has been used to keep students in their place, thwart asking questions, shield the teacher from closer scrutiny and keep the student engaged at a single point in their progress long after they should have moved on. In my book this is right up there with "....I'm the teacher and I have special knowledge and when I think you are ready I will tell you." Now, if you are speaking of the Ryu-Ha system in Japan and the old Koryo arts that have their roots back in the 15th and 16th century, well, stringent protocols and strict lineal hierarchy are the order of the day. Thats what you are getting when you buy the package. However, Korean arts don't have this tradition. Certainly you want to be respectful and polite towards the wishes of your teacher, and I personally would encourage you to defer to those special considerations unique to Korean culture if your teacher is a Korean national or 1st Gen citizen in another country. However, IMVHO the purpose of a teacher is to teach, which means one expects that in time the student who is learning would find a place to part with the teacher and get out on their own. In others words, if I am a good teacher I should striving to "work my way OUT of a job"-- so to speak. In my own classes my students have set amounts of information they need to understand and set amounts of mat time to accrue. Once that is done it is up to them to come to me and state they are ready to test. If they have the mat hours I know that I have done MY job. If they are not confident enough to come and ask for testing then their progress is THEIR responsibility not mine. I expect my students to be pro-active in their own education. I notice where you commented that ".... TKD folks seem somewhat obsessed with belts and testing. Looking at the syllabus at the local TKD school, I was flabbergasted to see how many belts theyhave, and within each level there are three sub-levels where you have to earn some kind of stripe to append to your belt. I believe I was told that ordinarily people are expected to test every three months....." From what I can tell this is the natural consequence of exactly the attitude you cited in the comment at the beginning of the post. Imagine what would happen if the Public School system broke each grade down, and then again, each class within the grade with its attendent (and ever-increasing) charges assesed by the teacher. What I am thinking of is the development of a charge-cash protocol that takes on a life of its own independent of the proficiency of the students. The question would be "how far does this go?" Do we now have a mini-test (with a mini-charge) once a week? How about a "pop quiz" with a "pop quiz charge" at the end of each class? The Korean traditions never had a "belt" or "rank" system. One simply learned a skill and then was assessed by the employer or community on the basis of occupation. In this case the Confucian exam system is a good example as were the regular assessments of the various military units. The Japanese never had a belt rank system until Kano Sensei came along and the same holds true for the Okinawan traditions and the traditional Chinese arts as well. If you are amazed at the plethora of ranks and belts and their attendent charges, I am right there with you and will include my dismay at how little these ranks and charges contribute to the quality of the instruction. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Gregory Giddins To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 09:31:00 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] testing garbage Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I guess I can pipe in here, because it was my comment that triggered this comment from Firstpe, and I really don't want to do any real work right now: "I'm curious again. I was "kind of" taught (through example mainly) that YOU don't decide when you test, your instructor does. I was "kind of" taught (through example mainly) that when your instructor tells you to test, you test, because if you don't, you are (in so many words) telling the you know more than they do." OK, this is all my take on this, and it's very opinionated, if you disagree feel free to splutter and rage, just please don't call me names. I hate that. In many circles, yes, this is still the case. The instructor takes supreme control over his students activites, like demanding they test when the instructor arbitrarily schedules the testing the time, and to so much as blink in surprise offends the instructor (GASP! Offended instructors! Oh my!). But often, these days, what you will find if you pay attention to (some of) these instructors here in the US is that the instructor schedules the tests for all the "properly seasoned" students right before rent is due. Hmm... And these instructos spend alot of time either being offended or playing mind-games to get the students to learn not to offend him. What a waste of valueable time... Anyway, I have been fortunate in that I have trained with a few instructors who didn't play the ego-thing up and use testing as a control tactic, although my first one did. And yes, when HE said test, you tested. And you came up with the $50 bucks the next day, and cleared your schedule on Thursday night even if you were having surgery. And to so much as stutter in surprise would have been bad JuJu (read: ettiquette), and probably meant you'd fail the test because you hadn't learned the "other" lessons that are required at your rank, and the senior students would snub you and make you feel "bad" for a while (I know- I was one of those senior students). Then I moved, and trained with a much less controlling instructor, and he told his students when they were *physically* ready to advance, and they scheduled the test when they could clear the extra time, and when they felt they were sychologically/mentally prepared (and strangely enough, testing fees were $15, not $50, go figure). This instructor didn't need the testing fee money. And he didn't need the thrill of command to make himself feel good. It was no skin off his back if you stayed a greenbelt for a few weeks longer than *he thought* minimally neccesary. He would only step in when it was obvious the student had a confidence problem (like I did at red belt). Essentially, what that does is remove all the mind games that so many instructors like to play with their students (apologies to all the mind-game playing instructors out there, I don't mean to offend, just relating my experiences). My *second* instructor was my mentor, my teacher, and my friend. And teachers mentors and friends don't control or manipulate their charges, they teach them, coach them and support them. Mentors don't force their students into something, they offer them opportunities to take a step for themselves. I guess there are 2 main schools of though on the testing business, and I have embraced the school that says "I am not the supreme ruler of my students", I am their coach, mentor and (hopefully) friend. I will give them all the knowledge I have, and all the support I can muster. But I won't order them around like I'm their commanding officer, or make decisions for them like I'm their overbearing Papa, or use coersion, guilt and fear to keep them "in line" with my wishes. (shrug) Maybe I'm just a bad teacher. That's ok with me. Heck, my students even call me "Greg" in class (GASP!). But you know what? They all come back. And they all train hard. And they all perform just as well as (or better than) the students of my first (Master Mindgame) instructor, without all the grovelling, stress and low self esteem that those students (and I) had. And we all learn from eachother (something Master mindgame could never have done--- learn from his students) and we have fun. Alot of it. When we're not grunting in class we're laughing. (Gasp!) Laughing in class?!?!?! Oh yeah. Lots of it. I wouldn't have it any other way. Greg G --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "bob smith" To: Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:51:02 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Testing TKD & Karate Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Day Bobby, It is an interesting observation about testing. Having taken Karate in my younger days and now being in TKD for several years I agree and disagree. There are certainly more belts in TKD but that actually varies depending on the School and Instructor. It can appear like students can be preoccupied with belts but it does really help break down the learning into segments. Additionally, the stripes on the belts identify areas you need to work (ie to get the stripe). In fact in my school the stripes on the belt are brand new to us (beware when 6,7,&8 level dans start exchanging ideas at a lunch). I find this especially helpful with children. As for Karate, it seemed at times depressing not knowing where my strengths and weaknesses were. We also had the stripes in my Karate dojo. However, they were assigned two to three weeks before the test. That way you did not have to ask to test you know by the three stripes you had qualified to test. Thus could show up. I am starting to think thats why some of TKD dojangs are doing so. (Please no more arguments of cultural stealing). I am glad you are in TKD now. I hope the experience will be a lifelong interest. Bob Smith of The Smith TKD Family Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest