Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:27:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #51 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Belt testing (Burdick, Dakin R) 2. Belts and testing (Chris Holmes) 3. healthy? (Khalkee@netscape.net) 4. Re: TKD.net spam (Robert Martin) 5. Good/Healthy (Khalkee@netscape.net) 6. RE: Belts (Geoff) 7. Martial Arts as a Lifestyle (Brian Beach) 8. Testing (Rudy Timmerman) 9. Warrior Monk (Khalkee@netscape.net) 10. Belt Ranks (Steven Klotz) 11. Test when ready (Charles Richards) 12. Re: Belts (Braeswood Martial Arts) 13. Re: Good Sex Rule (Michael Rowe) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:11:13 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Belt testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce mentioned: "if you are speaking of the Ryu-Ha system in Japan and the old Koryo arts that have their roots back in the 15th and 16th century, well, stringent protocols and strict lineal hierarchy are the order of the day. Thats what you are getting when you buy the package. However, Korean arts don't have this tradition." That's a fairly sweeping statement, and I'd have to say it is also inaccurate. You know that the Korean arts DO have that tradition Bruce, and that is why you fight against it so much. "IMVHO the purpose of a teacher is to teach, which means one expects that in time the student who is learning would find a place to part with the teacher and get out on their own." And that IS your opinion Bruce but obviously not others. Personally I'm with you on this one. Wouldn't it be a great world if it was like that? "In my own classes my students have set amounts of information they need to understand and set amounts of mat time to accrue. Once that is done it is up to them to come to me and state they are ready to test." I think I tend to support a stronger role by the instructor -- the instructor is, after all, the person who should know the most about the art, and should therefore have some input on whether that person is ready to train. Mat time and command of the techniques is not enough for me. If I promote someone, that person becomes a representative of me, so I have to know that he/she is going to do a good job. "The Korean traditions never had a "belt" or "rank" system. One simply learned a skill and then was assessed by the employer or community on the basis of occupation. In this case the Confucian exam system is a good example as were the regular assessments of the various military units." Doesn't this contradict yourself? The Confucian tradition was all about establishing hierarchy and rank. "The Japanese never had a belt rank system until Kano Sensei came along and the same holds true for the Okinawan traditions and the traditional Chinese arts as well." Actually, the belt system came out of kendo first I think. Kano adapted it, and then the travelling judo instructors of the late 1800s and early 1900s expanded it so they could organize seminars more easily. I think belts and ranks are great for motivating kids or for making money, but really pretty unimportant in the grand scheme of things. If anything, they tend to make the elimination of ego (what I see as an important aim) a whole lot harder. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:39:46 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Belts and testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello to everyone, I would just like to add my spin to the belt and testing issues. First we have to remember that we are teaching Americans not Asians. Most Americans have a here and now philosophy, we want results and we want them now. This was really true for me when I was younger and it holds true for most of the high school students I teach. I do not really like this attitude but unfortunatly it seems to be prevalent in our culture. This being said belts then come to represent achievements, goals, and successes. I was taught by one of my instructors that the only belts that matter are white and black. He taught us this to emphasize that color belts are only a method of marking a student's progress on the way to black belt. When an instructor views them this way he then can utilize the belt system to teach goal setting, to instill self confidence, and to help him or her to better manage the classes. In addition it serves as a visual reminder for the student or their parents that they are learning something. This can be helpful especially for younger students. In an ideal world we could teach martial arts for free but I need more mats now and they aren't cheap. Therefore I have to keep the a.d.d. and the a.d.h.d. students motivated and improving. As far as testing goes I have had several students that would probably have remained white belts forever if I had not pushed them and encouraged them to test. They were just plain scared/nervous. I have not lost one of them yet and I think they have a little more confidence in me when I tell them to try something new. I knew they were ready but they did not. Any way I've rambled enough. Thanks to all who replied to my post regarding school ownership. Chris Holmes _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:54:27 -0500 From: Khalkee@netscape.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] healthy? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't know GM Ji, but in the broad background of Buddhist/etc.-inspired and/or influenced MAs ... the sex issue is usually addressed by the advice (or vow) to "avoid wrongful sex". It is then an ethical/moral thing moreso than a physical health thing. OTOH, pursuing the ethical/moral also tends to promote the physical health, e.g., mindful sex = healthy sex = within healthy relationships => decreased incidence of bad relationships, relatede social ills, diseases, etc. __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:01:51 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD.net spam Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I had to ban the gentlemen that runs the tkd.net list from my own list for being a complete dumb&$#&. He won't let me join his list now. It was kind of funny. Robert Martin --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:05:54 -0500 From: Khalkee@netscape.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Good/Healthy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Good Sex" has been explained to me as "avoid wrongful sex".  In other words, pursue virtue.  It was never explained as related to advice on "procedures" ... moreso an ethical/moral advice ... like saying "proper" or "within a healthy relationship".  "Wrongful sex" is really easy to figure out, yes?  It doesn't have to be criminal (rape) to be "wrongful".  This advice discourages those dynamics which result in bad relationships, related social ills, diseases, etc.   __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:08:55 -0800 (PST) From: Geoff Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Belts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am a yellow belt student of Kuk Sool Won and when I read this testing thread I had to add my two cents as well. While I do feel as though I am learning a significant amount from my instructor myself, I sometimes feel as though my belt advancement is somewhat worthless when I see others in class who have not even completed the required skill sets advancing as well, simply because they have been at the same level for 6 weeks or more. I have noticed, however, that once a student reaches brown belt, they could be there through 8-10 "black stripes" before they get promoted to 1st degree black belt (the normal, I believe, is 6). When I approached a 3rd degree black belt with this observation, I was told that the reasoning behind this was that lower belts are simply for teaching "the fundamentals" of movement and structure, and that students are not truly taught "martial arts" until they reach 1st degree black belt. I can understand this line of reasoning, but as Victor points out below, I have spotted at least two black belts in my class that I feel I could defeat in sparring, and I am also somewhat confused about the idea of promoting 10 and 12 year old children to brown belt when they all look as though they would prefer to be at home watching cartoons and don't seem to be learning. At the risk of inflaming some of the instructors on this list, is it possible that the idea of promotion in the lower belts is more of a way to keep paying customers paying, and that the real separation of wheat from chaffe does not occur until Black Belt, or am I being too cynical? Sorry for such a long post ... Geoff From: "Berkland, Victor (US - Omaha)" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 07:06:05 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bobby had some nice comments about belt testing and I wanted to expand on them. I wonder that the rank system has not lead to the decline in the martial arts in the United States. Case in point is the black belt TKD from another school that comes to our school and gets beat by a yellow belt in sparring. Or the student that wants to transfer their belts into another school without gaining the knowledge. How do you become a black belt; well just pay for the whole year at some dojangs. I chuckle at tournaments when I see 10 year old black belts. If they can't sit still in the black belt meeting without being disruptive, I doubt they are martial artist in their heads and heart. I experienced 8 year old black belts helping out the scoring in a tournament, that couldn't keep up with the scoring by differentiating between point red or point white. My point is that in our culture, achievement is measured by the belt color, and not by the knowledge. Schools begin to cater to the market's desire to progress quickly through the belts. And when this happens, the art is degraded. Knowledge through training. Yours in the arts Mr. Berkland (for the record 12 months training, 8th gup) This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:30:54 -0500 From: Brian Beach To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts as a Lifestyle Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The discussion of "good sex" and belt testing sparked this question - What is the line between hobbyist and martial arts as a lifestyle? Is it an adaptation of a philosophy? Is it having the arts permeate your life? Time? or other? Brian --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:32:08 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bobby writes: > I was flabbergasted to see how many belts they > have, and within each level there are three sub-levels > where you have to earn some kind of stripe to append > to your belt. I believe I was told that ordinarily > people are expected to test every three months. > > I have been working out at a local shotokan school for > about a year, and in that time the shotokan school has > not had a single test. That is in line with the other > shotokan schools I've trained with too. In my > experience it seems like we have a testing around once > a year. Hello Bobby, nice to have your input. Just like you can't believe the number of tests some schools have, I can't believe that you train for a year and a half without someone having a serious look at all you do. To be sure, I understand that you probably have an Instructor correct you while on the floor, but every Instructor worth his salt will do that. IMHO, having a test every three months is the same as taking your vehicle in for a check every three or four months (whatever is recommended). I am sure that you don't drive without personally checking the oil in between time. If you don't check the oil etc., you put yourself at risk to have a serious engine problem some day. In the same token, don't be surprised to find you have picked up a real bad martial art habit you can't shake. Testing often is good, as long as it is done for the right reason. Kevin writes that he wished he had taken more time to allow his groin injury to heal. I'm here to tell him "I told you so":) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:51:18 -0500 From: Khalkee@netscape.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Warrior Monk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Warrior Monk" is not an oxymoron . . . even wandering Sannyasis (swamis) of India carried weapons and fought when they needed (or wanted) to (when they take their vows they get a robe, a bowl, and a staff, hence the "robe and bowl" of kung fu grandmaster successions). The Bodhisattva tradition is characterized by "heroic lifesavers". Also in India there were/are ashrams which teach comprehensive ranges of combative methods ... inseparable from the spiritual training available there. The monks of Shaolin and other temples in China were no exception to this "tradition" and monks from a number of Chinese temples (not just Shaolin) played major roles in the combat history of warring China. Research, for example, "The Heroes of Tian Shan". Similar stories in Japan, etc. Sometimes doing combat, including the injury etc. of others, can be an act of compassion. For example, if I kill someone who is trying to murder another, then I have prevented that potential murderer (in the existential sense??? karma/vipaka???) from incurring the costs associated with having murdered someone. The compassion within my actions would affect both the would-be murderer and the would-be victim. No, I'm not a monk but I have taken the Bodhisattva vows and know that there is no contradiction here ... one must do combat if/when necessary. Homesty, right motivation, and right intent are the keys. __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:49:11 -0800 (PST) From: Steven Klotz To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Belt Ranks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is my first post, so I'll give a quick introduction. I started traing in Tae Soo Do, the Hwa Rang Do undergraduate program, 2 years ago. I'm 24 years old and was quite out of shape when I started. Training in a martial art was one of the best choices I've ever made. I'd like to make an quick observation about colored belts. I've had the opprotunity to assist with begining classes for the last few months. For me, keeping track of who knows what material would be impossible without the colored belts; however, I feel that this early experience assisting will aid in overall growth as a martial artist. Basically I'm saying that there are more reasons for having a belt system than have been discussed recently. I've been enjoying this discussion group since I found it about a week ago. Keep up the lively discussion. Steven Klotz ===== Me: http://FightingStyles.com/mentatjack Job: http://NOVICA.com Life: http://HwaRangDo.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:06:02 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Test when ready Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear list I have seen the stripes and test before rent day, and even business management consultants advising that you test one third of your students every month to keep a nice pad to your cash flow... Here's IMVHO the good I've pulled out of other's ideas 1. I don't charge a seperate fee for gup testing so the money is never an issue 2. I have a belt test the fourth Friday of every month and widely publisize that. 3. I use a three stripe "progress check" system that breaks the small goal down even smaller, and is also based on attendance so it helps build the two days per week habbit. 4. Once a student has three stripes they will meet the time in grade and number of classes requirement in the fourth month and they are listed in our newsletter as elligible to test. 5. Showing up is up to them and they can test next month if they miss it. In the last 12 months of having a test every month I have done two make ups and they where for beginner level students. Frankly most students are traking their attendance card, reading their manual to see what techniques will be required, and practicing their required forms because of this system. Most studednts (and parents) begin planning two month in advance of their teest to invite friends and family. By keeping the time and date consistent, I have had both parents, and a couple of repeat grandparents show up to watch their loved ones test. Here's the key I use the progress check as a time to "fail" someone. It's a lot easier to miss an in class intermediate step and be told what areas need improvement than "fail" a test in front of your mom and little brother. If a person makes corrections and is ready I allow myself to progress check and test a good student in the same month so....Little Johnny could be struggling with PA#2 and not get his 3rd stripe in the 3rd month, but work hard and get his 3rd stripe in month 4 and get an invitation to test... So far it works well for me and is very well received by my parents. I even have karate moms checking off what little Johnny needs to know and counting up his attendance on the attendance card. The only time I've had someone tell me they're nervous/not ready is on a 9th gup (first) test. Most people do very well on that test, but are just new to the whole culture... Yours in Jung Do, CHarles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Belts Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:11:59 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Geoff, When I was in Kuk Sool Won I also noticed the same as you have and got the exact same answer from my instructor. I am glad you are here on the DD and not limiting yourself to only KSW influence and answers, as this will undoubtedly make you a better martial artist and hopefully improve the level of students in your school. Kat --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:43:19 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Good Sex Rule Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >What is the definition of this very good rule, of > >the term "healthy sex"? > > Ray writes: > Without going into too much detail, it is far less complex than some > would make it. It is more along the lines that sex for hetro adults is > good. > Too much sex, i.e. too frequent, can be bad. As one ages, the sex should > become less frequent as it saps life energy, esp from the man. > > Not too complex.>> > Actually it is not the amount of sex that you allow it is how often you ejaculate. It is the loss of sperm (or jing) that saps life's energy from a man. A woman gains life energy when she orgasms. However a man loses life energy when he ejaculates. There are whole series of exercises that men can practice that allow them to have sex, orgasms, and NOT ejaculate. The simplest of these exercises are ones that almost everyone is familiar with "Kegel." Well my two cents worth at least. Michael Rowe --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest