Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:38:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #53 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Monk_Stuff_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 2. Re: Martial Arts as a Lifestyle (Lanie) 3. Time to test (Rudy Timmerman) 4. Martial Arts as Hobby - Way of Life (FirstPe315@aol.com) 5. no belts (Charles Richards) 6. RE>Ken's version (MW) 7. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Rank_Stuff_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 8. breaking (MW) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Buddha_Stuff_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 10. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:What_sort_of_vow=3F_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 11. RE>thoughts for geoff (MW) 12. Re: Re:_Buddha_Stuff_ (Lanie) 13. RE: RE>Ken's version (Wallace, John) 14. RE: breaking (Wallace, John) 15. New Office Email Addresses (fwd) (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:22:11 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Monk_Stuff_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Khalkee: The problem with the Warrior-monk issue is that it is long on oral tradition and short on actual documentation. I recently ran across a dissertation on the Korean Warrior monks and am working to get a copy of it. Excepting that, most of what I have found is a bit like your post. There are the same common references made to general monk populations ("Shaolin Temple" for instance) who are then loosely associated with some martial tradition (staff fighting, various MT hand arts for instance) and then some historical personage or event is stirred in (fall of the Ming; incursions by northern tribes). In Korean history there is the Imjin War which showcases incredible efforts by fighting monks against the Japanese. Do we know their martial traditions? Do we know where they learned their skills or how these skills were propagated from one generation to the next? In Chinese and Japanese traditions a "monk" could be just about anyone who hung around the Temple precincts. These fellas could have been failed farmers, derelicts and the sick-lame-or-lazy of the community. They could have also been deposed government officials, disenfranchised warriors, soldiers-of-fortune and the like. We also don't know what the curriculum of such an institution might have been or even if they had one. About the 16th Century, General Qi was complaining that fighting skills generally in China were just so much "flowery" stuff. He didn't even mention the existence of a Shaolin Temple style of MA. The problem becomes one of specifics. Where do we go to start getting specific information on who the fighting monks were and what they were about? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:12:07 -0800 (PST) From: Lanie Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts as a Lifestyle To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wouldn't the philosophies, tenets, oaths all be adhered to if a person were living the life of a true martial artist? An artist is defined as a person whose work shows creativity and imagination. So, aesthetics comes to mind. Aesthetics, not just techniqes without aesthetics is a component of any martial art? So, is it the person who dedicates his/herself to perfecting all aspects of their favorite martial art? The hobbyist, on the other hand, might be one who tinkers with practicing the art as one who plays guitar or piano for fun, but will not develop it because their more serious interests lie elsewhere? Not easy questions to answer because of the semantics that will inevitably play a part in defining what a hobbyist is and what the serious artist is. Hmmm.... Thank you kindly, Lanie --- Brian Beach wrote: > What > is the line between hobbyist and martial arts > as a lifestyle? Is it an > adaptation of a philosophy? Is it having the > arts permeate your life? Time? > or other? > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 01:42:38 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Time to test Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Geoff writes: > I sometimes feel as though my belt advancement is somewhat worthless > when I see others in class who have not even completed the required > skill sets advancing as well, simply because they have been at the > same level for 6 weeks or more. I have noticed, however, that once a > student reaches brown belt, they could be there through 8-10 "black > stripes" before they get promoted to 1st degree black belt Hello Geoff: Your observation is a very keen one; however, it is not as simple as you may think. Not all people are created equal, and this gives caring instructors a huge headache at testing time. As a school owner, it is my job to encourage ALL students to become better than they themselves are. This means that there will no doubt be some students who outshine others in skill, and this we must accept as a fact of life. On the other hand, I also need to maintain as much integrity for each rank as is humanly possible. A difficult task indeed, and one that is sure to make some people wonder about your motives for passing folks who are not cut out to be the next Jackie Chan. The real worth of YOUR belt is in the knowledge that you did the absolute best you could, and that can never be measured against any other belt holder. While this seems a hollow satisfaction, think about how you would feel if I passed just those who are better than YOU were. In the education system, be it martial arts or other, there will always be some that pass with higher marks than others, and those with the highest mark are not always the best people. In fact, I have thrown some of my better skilled Black Belts out of my school, because they failed to advance in aspects such as humility and caring about those less fortunate. Physical skill by itself is just not good enough to make a good martial artist. IMHO, the WKSA grading system is not to get the best out of a student. To pass along a student without having completed the required material is paramount to passing everyone in grade school. When you get to University, you'll soon find out that you NEED those basic math and English skills. Similarly, a student who has not learned martial art basics will have a hard time passing a black belt test, and in the end they are usually "given" the belt because they have their eight (or whatever) stripes. This in no way will get the most out of a student. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 From: FirstPe315@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 02:32:43 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts as Hobby - Way of Life Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wish I could be as brilliant as a great author by the name of Dave Lowry who writes the answer to this question best... "In Japanese the word is Keiko which means "to involve oneself in a process"". The non-japanese speaking bugeisha struggles for a verb broad enough to convey the inducement that draws him to the way ... Does he "play" his art? If so, is it an indication to him a lack of seriousness on his part. Does he "practice""? If so, then for what, exactly, is he practicing? Is it to accomplish something tangible, or is practice for practice's sake sufficient to propel him ... An individual may practice, learn, "takes" or "lessons" or he "does" his art etc ... none of these adequately explain it. An more detailed analysis of the kanji for Keiko can be translated ..."to meditate upon the old." A wayfarer who is dependent more than most upon those who have walked before him. All are, in one manner or another, a contemplation of the past. Thanks Dave. Jeff In a message dated 1/30/2003 4:43:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > The discussion of "good sex" and belt testing sparked this question - What > is the line between hobbyist and martial arts as a lifestyle? Is it an > adaptation of a philosophy? Is it having the arts permeate your life? Time? > or other? > > Brian --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 05:12:26 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] no belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Has anyone else ever tried/considered straying from the colored belt system? Do you think a system without colored belts would work with children? <> Dear Master Tran Great to hear from another TSD player on the list! When I was formulating my student manual/ciriculum I thought long and hard about a no color belt system for all the reasons you stated, and also thought about allowing adults to do it on an optional basis. I think you're dead on for a bunch of healthy College aged coeds, rank means very little, and I bet you probably can teach the block class style of everyone of all ranks in one class. Having a free place to teach of course allows us as instructors the greatest amount of freedom in remaining traditional or long term focoused. Most of you know by know I use a three phase system, so my phase three students will have your students mindset about actual rank (they essentially wear a red belt the last year of training). But my phase one students have a lot of little short term successes and a lot of fun while they build the habbit of coming twice a week for a whole year. Just curious, in TSD it is customary to line up by rank/senority. How do you handle that if all white belts and in theory no one knows who's 1st gup and who's 8th gup? Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: 31 Jan 03 08:27:34 -0600 From: MW To: the_dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] RE>Ken's version Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Big Ken, Loved your version of the 10 rules and feel the same. "Live life to it's fullest. Moderation is for monks" author unknown michael whalen kswnut --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:26:54 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Rank_Stuff_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dakin: I have not been able to find anything that suggests that the Kendo people were the first with a ranking system after the fashion of the dan/kyu approach. Kendo in its fashion was derived from a number of sources but the most influential seems to have been the organization of the Butokukai in 1895, of which there were branchs in both Korea-- and on the US West Coast. The idea of a grading system was not new as the Koryo arts of old Japan as they had been using a system of licensures and certificates for quite a while in the Ryu-Ha system to identify various levels of expertise. However, none of this has much to do with the Korean arts other than to say that returning students and ex-pats from Japan to Korea brought the rank system along with them when they re-patriated to Korea. This also does not include those activities actually taught in Korea during the Occupation. My original position was, and is, that Korea did not have such a grading system in their MA. And this statement is not in conflict with my later comment about the Confucian "Service Exams." If I may, let me draw an analogy from modern context. Suppose I am taught to shoot a rifle or hunt from a family member or a friend. I would not ordinarily get a rank, or pass through a system of ranks in this activity. However, if I later join the military or a police department I would be tested to see how well what I SAID I could do actually matches my performance. I believe it would be the same in the KMA context historically. There seems to be more evidence of people learning MA skills "informally" within the local community and later applying those skills as part of some other position they acquired. There is also, of course, the matter of people being conscripted into the military or police and learning a skill there as well. However, once again, there is no record of dan or guep ranks being used to discriminate between various levels of ability. The use of the dan ranking system is something that was borrowed from the Japanese culture, as there is not even any record of such a system in Okinawa which is where the precursor arts to Karate and Kempo came from. It is only with the advent of sport applications that people found it necessary to make fair match-ups between competitors of comparable ability. I had one other thought, Dakin, and that is about my "need" to speak out against this and other issues- a point you raised in your last post. As I see it, my only true issue is the on-going efforts of a great number of people to either make the KMA something they are not, OR to diminish their standing with constant comparisons to other cultures. From all that I have researched so far there is nothing to suggest that KMA are either superior or inferior to other arts around the World. They simply stand on their own merit. However, you can be sure that if someone makes some grandiose statement about the nature of KMA in Korea to facilitate his self-promotion I will probably say something. In like manner I will probably be all over the individual who finds a need to run KMA down as somehow second class. I honestly wish to Hell that a great many of the KMA personalities had done more to give us the straight story on things. Unfortunately they didn't and it is up to our generation to clean-up the mess. I do not advocate reliance on the traditions of another culture to get this done, and I heartily applaud folks like JR and Rudy for doing what they can to contribute to the effort. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: 31 Jan 03 08:48:37 -0600 From: MW To: the_dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] breaking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was at a MA seminar in colorad springs in Nov, 2002 and the Kempo demo team was breaking what seemed to be stacks of 6x12x2 cement pads. Anybody know if this is the correct/standard size? michael whalen kswnut --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:39:52 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Buddha_Stuff_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Lanie: "..... The Bhuddistic way, I think it's of Bhudda, preaches "detatchment" from emotions, from your thoughts, etc. BTW, does anyone remember the book "Be Here Now" that was published way back in the '70's?....." You are in the ball park. Maybe a better way to look at the concept of "non- attachment", especially with energy-charged states like anger and grief might be the following. "To acknowledge a situation without being controlled by it." In various recovery programs there are comments like "don't let somebody live rent-free in yer head" or "put a teflon coating on your mind or heart." All of these statements are ways of acknowledging that the intellect, emotion, body and spirit don't all run by the same rules but that, if allowed, circumstance can incite them to each go into business for themselves. Anger, sorrow, joy etc. are not good or bad of themselves but doing somethings while controlled by them might make it so. Speaking from personal experience, training to live ones' life this way is an on-going struggle. One can neither go through life as an insensitive zombie, nor in over-reacting to each and every stimulous. As always the path lies in the Middle Way. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:48:06 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:What_sort_of_vow=3F_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Khalkee: You made a reference to taking a "bodhisatva" vow? I'm not sure I have ever run across this in Buddhist traditions before. There has been the tradition of those having become enlightened making the willful choice to return to a lower plane of existence. This choice is made with the intent of helping others to find Enlightenment before one actually passes into Oneness themselves. However, I understand that this choice is made after para- nivana (physical death) and wouldn't seem to be something a person would make during ones' own lifetime. Can you elaborate? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: 31 Jan 03 09:43:43 -0600 From: MW To: the_dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] RE>thoughts for geoff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net These are just my thoughts so take them for what you think they're worth. - I feel it's unhealthy to compare yourself with others although hard not to do. Instead maybe try comparing yourself to what you think is your personal limit. - stripes- the average in the Tx/La area is 8 however I've seen as many as 12. This, I feel, demonstrates that you get your BB when you are ready, not just a "gimme" when you've fulfilled the class attendance/hours that the school may require. (There's a local school in the houston area, which I will not name, that "guarantees" a BB in a set amount of time. How can they do this when everyone has a different speed of learning?) - I was told upon receiving my BB that "Now you are ready to learn" < I have spotted at least two black belts in my class that I feel I could defeat in sparring> -I feel that receiving your BB means that you have been given the necessary tools. The belt is worthless if you don't use them. -The key word here is "junior brown belt" - This could be in some schools. But in a good school I see them as goal setters. Without a goal you're just wandering. Now you may not agree with some or all of what I've said and that's your choice. However, it's good to see that you are not just going along with the crowd or just taking someone's word because of rank and have your own opinion. Very refreshing! Respectfully michael "I love boat rockers" whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:13:39 -0800 (PST) From: Lanie Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:_Buddha_Stuff_ To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Mr. Bruce, Yes. I agree, to not be controlled by emotions and thoughts.... When I was a kid, I meditated 3 x day, and did yoga postures 3x day religiously. (It was the 70's ;) )The state of mind, of "peace" actually came about after several months of doing these things. I was able to observe my emotions as they "happened" and observe my thoughts as they "happened". I physically felt a constant relaxation (probably endorphines from the yoga exercises) and mental relaxation,serenity, calm, what ever it is. And I didn't consider it a struggle; it was a process. I wasn't dismayed when I couldn't observe me as if I were someone else doing the action. (Almost sounds like insanity, doesn't it?) However, today, I might consider that obtaining mental peace a struggle. Our western thought has its practical applications in terms of not being controlled by our own re-actions (thoughts and emotions). But this doesn't mean that we westerners must practice yoga or follow Buddha in order to gain this state of mind and body. So, there was a religious aspect to Buddhistic teachings, whereas, in western thought, self mastery has many different terminologies, and not necessarily within religious contexts. But I can't really dissertate about that because I don't know enough about it! Thank you for your comments and thoughts! Lanie --- bsims@midwesthapkido.com wrote: >> "..... The Bhuddistic > way, I think it's of Bhudda, preaches > "detatchment" from emotions, from your > thoughts, > etc. BTW, does anyone remember the book "Be > Here > Now" that was published way back in the > '70's?....." > [BRUCE] > "To acknowledge a situation without being > controlled by it." > > Anger, sorrow, joy etc. are not > good or bad of themselves but > doing somethings while controlled by them might > make it so. Speaking from > personal experience, training to live ones' > life this way is an on-going > struggle. One can neither go through life as an > insensitive zombie, nor in > over-reacting to each and every stimulous. As > always the path lies in the > Middle Way. FWIW. > > Best Wishes, > > Bruce > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE>Ken's version Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:17:24 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net That would be Robert Heinlein from "Time Enough for Love". The full quote goes something like "Everything in excess! To enjoy the full flavor of life take big bites - moderation is for monks". Not terribly buddhist, I think - although I remember an aphorism from my Asian Philosophy class in college that went "Moderation in all things, including moderation". That’s pretty much my motto :) John W. I Dan, TKD Fremont, CA -----Original Message----- From: MW [mailto:whalen@natgraph.com] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 6:28 AM To: the_dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] RE>Ken's version Big Ken, Loved your version of the 10 rules and feel the same. "Live life to it's fullest. Moderation is for monks" author unknown michael whalen kswnut _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003 --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] breaking Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:48:38 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For that matter - what about the practice of using "spacers" between the elements? We don't use spacers in breaking boards - it seems to me that it’s a deceptive practice. Its also not clear to me how the difficulty of brick breaking is relative to board breaking. Is 1 brick = 2 boards? The difference in elasticity between a brittle, homogenous structure like a brick and a (relatively) flexible, non-homogenous pine board seems to complicate the issue. Another thing I don’t like much about the breaking demos I've seen is that the "power breaks" and the like are done with downward strikes. These clearly don't mimic much in the way of a combative movement (unless you're killing a downed opponent?) and it seems to favour those competitors with large body sizes. They have gravity to assist their more massive limbs, and the height to get the right leverage on a stack of (spacer elevated) bricks. Overall the breaking feat I'm most taken with is the one where a competitor snaps the handle of a Louisville Slugger with a low roundhouse (turning) kick. There's a clear application for that strike in (literally) taking the legs out from under an opponent. That and the trick of breaking boards or bricks in the back or center of a stack. I'm still scratching my head over that one. If Mr. Steffen is lurking perhaps he can educate us on the physics of breaking these various materials? -----Original Message----- From: MW [mailto:whalen@natgraph.com] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 6:49 AM To: the_dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] breaking I was at a MA seminar in colorad springs in Nov, 2002 and the Kempo demo team was breaking what seemed to be stacks of 6x12x2 cement pads. Anybody know if this is the correct/standard size? michael whalen kswnut --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003 --__--__-- Message: 15 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:26:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] New Office Email Addresses (fwd) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarded message: Please change your address books to reflect our new email addresses. When we networked the US Taekwondo office, it was necessary to drop AOL and make our systems more efficient. Bruce Harris Executive Director ustued@mailsnare.net Jeanna Mendoza Administrative Director ustugold@mailsnare.net Lisa Psenicka Finance Director ustufinance@mailsnare.net Dedra McClay Dan Office Senior Mgr. ustudan@mailsnare.net Guyda Marr Membership Senior Mgr. ustumember@mailsnare.net Maureen Jensen Membership Assistant ustumember@mailsnare.net Betsy Liebsch Events Manager ustuevents@mailsnare.net Jennifer Combs Manger of Sports Programs usturef@mailsnare.net Lynda Henry Administrative Assistant ustutkd1@mailsnare.net ************************************************************** US Taekwondo Union One Olympic Plaza Ste 104C Colorado Springs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest