Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 19:18:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #56 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Strange Attacks & HKD Self-Defense (FirstPe315@aol.com) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Nice_Job!!!_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_TKD/Hapkido_Thoughts?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 4. breaking demos (freddie bishop) 5. Warrior Monks (Khalkee@netscape.net) 6. Monks (Khalkee@netscape.net) 7. Re: Warrior Monks (Ray Terry) 8. tactfulness (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 9. Re: Breaking stuff (Laurie S.) 10. Re: OT, was _Nice_Job!!!_ (Lanie) 11. Re: Belt ranking system -- follow-up (Denise Lee) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 16:51:03 -0500 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Strange Attacks & HKD Self-Defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Although he sounds like he possibly may be a Hapkido imposter, understand one thing. You must understand that MANY of Hapkido's basic and initial grabs are not meant to be realistic but are teaching you how to apply a variety of locks from a variety of angles so that in a situation that is dynamic and changing, your training having prepared you, will low and behold slap on a lock that you know and you will have learned how to do it. Don't be too "gung-ho" in the "stuff that works" so to speak. Many non-Hapkido, Aikido and Jiu-jutsu people watch some of the techniques and trainings and have the familiar "that will never work" or "nobody will ever attack me like that". Unfortunately, it usually means they really have no concept of what they are watching. That has been my experience. Jeff In a message dated 2/1/2003 3:35:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > I have never been > grabbed or attacked in a manner which the instructor > is teaching defenses for. However, I have been sucker > punched, groin attacked, and tackled a few times and I > used my TKD skills to defend myself, why does the > instructor teach something other than TKD for self > defense? --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 17:07:37 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Nice_Job!!!_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Chris: ".....That doesn’t sound negative about sex to me. Just the opposite, really....." Even if I don't necessarily agree with your position, my hat's off to you in a well-supported response. Perhaps I would draw a line at characterizing "Christianity bashing" as being particularly popular or commertial right now. My guess is that not a few people of the moderate and liberal aspects of many religions have simply grown tired of being bullied by the more conservative aspects of respective Faithes. As a counter to the self-righteousness of a conservatives' moral high-ground most folks I know use expose' of the inconsistencies, hypocrasy, or wrong doings of the champions of conservativism. Recent populist press regarding the Orthodox Jews frequenting bordellos in Tel Aviv, Catholic priests molesting children, and Evangelical preachers' infidelities and financial indiscretions are probably less a reflection on the Faithes involved than an attack on the community representatives of these Faithes. Getting back to the original theme, as with anything that involves a body orifice and/or a body discharge, Sex is going to carry a lot of energy for human beings around the world. But as I said before, conversation is going to dry-up pretty quick once people realize that all such discussions will repeatedly come back to responsible behavior--- which is actually the one place where something can be done, and probably the area of discussion least likely to be entertained. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 17:29:09 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_TKD/Hapkido_Thoughts?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Fred: I honestly wish I had some sort of answer for you but the fact is that some folks simply like things in the KMA arts the way that they are and resist any efforts to raise the level of integrity or authenticity of those arts. Why? Heck if I know. People resist testing and certification by responsible and competent teachers. Why is that, do you suppose? People continue to reprocess the same oral traditions and "urban legends" regarding the KMA without doing sound research or investigation. How come? People look for difference between arts rather than similarities among arts and then emphacise the former over the latter. Why for that is? I wish I could give you some pat answer like, "laziness", "ignorance", "stupidity", "racism" and so on, but thats a bit too pat. The fact is I don't have the foggiest idea why people would misrepresent or defraud others. I think about what you wrote and how many times I have sat and listened to horror stories from students and I still can't piece it together. If the instructor you mention is teaching some sort of joint-locking or throwing under the moniker of TKD I suppose thats on him. Not a few instructors constantly mix in stuff from various places in order to capitalize on the latest MA trends. They rationalize it by stating that their art is ever in a state of "growth". Fine. Whatever. I have said my piece enough times about this practice on this Net that everyone can pretty much guess my view of this. As I said before, TKD is not a Martial art. It is a martial sport, but it can be taught like a martial art. The same can be said for Shotokan Karate. It just takes dilligence and research and a willingness not to try to be all things to all people to make this happen. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 19:01:31 -0800 (PST) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] breaking demos Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The most impressive breaking demo I've ever seen was my original master instructor breaking six coke bottles. They were arranged on a table stacked in sets of two to make three sets. He used a backfist punch to break all six bottles. The instructor had other demo's also, but that one really stands out in my mind. Fred __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 00:38:26 -0500 From: Khalkee@netscape.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Warrior Monks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net hey, just because someone doesn't make any mention of something doesn't mean that it did not or does not exist ... the 'someone' simply did not or do not know about it. Re: where to start ... well, follow my first suggestion and look into the Heroes of Tian Shan. You can't get much more direct than that. Oh, sorry, yes you can ... you can go directly to Monk Shi Yan-Ming of Shaolin Temple. There's also Shi De Yang, his West Coast corollary (Shi Yan Ming is in New York I think). These are direct and reliable sources of info who can 'hip' you to the entire curricula, including the yoga which is the foundation of their Buddhist faith (depending on your sources you may learn that Buddhism is simply applied yoga). You can also look into Kalari payyat (or Vajra Mushti) for direct info re: the martial traditions within and/or surrounding the ashrams of India. This is the stuff of Bodhidharma's contribution (and he wasn't the only person from India [or elsewhere] to influence Chinese fighting styles ... the fighting Sufi warriors who served as Imperial Chinese Guards for example :-). So, there are many very direct lines of inquiry to follow. Records of monk cohorts fighting unfavorable odds can be easily found in the history of China. hey, some people don't believe that The Monkey King was real ... like, it's only a fairy tale, right? ANNNH! Wrong answer, Monkey is the "mythification" of a real "Journey to the West" to retrieve Buddhist scriptures/knowledge, etc. Go to Norhtern India and you'll find statues of Hanuman, the "monkey god" wearing Chinese clothing (huh?). Han -u-manu. Han man = China man. Get it? I toss this out only to say that sometimes we have to look in ways to which we may be unaccustomed. Just because the truth does not present itself readily via our habitual way(s) of thinking does not mean that the truth isn't out there ;-) Note: Lamas were brought into China by the Manchurians to defeat the Loyalists associated with Shaolin. I have studied both Shaolin and Lama styles. The lamas' kung fu is sometimes known as the Wandering Knight style. They were fighters, and in the first form taught to me by the grandmaster from whom I learn(ed) Lama skills included a method he would command as what sounded like "KEE-yu-da-NEH". Took me a while to get it, he was saying "Kill the neck!" This comes from Tibetan lamas ... alittle different from "regular" monks but there is some shared Buddhist tradition. Research Lion's Roar for the Tibetan/Chinese connection. See Shi De Yang and/or Shi Yan Ming for the India/Buddha/Bodhidharma/Shaolin/Warrior Monk connection. Re: Tian Shan ... the "school song" is about a great battle in which the Tian Shan temple guys played a big role. It's called "All Red the River". The bloodshed from the battle turned a river red, hence the theme. At the end of the form is a movement which Shih-Fu described as "dey drink da blood" and "dey set da bird free". The blood thing is still a little too "esoteric" for me, but these were things that were probably done by the warrior heroes of Tian Shan. Tian Shan Ssu was a temple near the Sino-Soviet border. Keep digging cousine, I'm confident that you'll find what you're looking for. The two Chinese monks from Shaolin would be real good sources to check out. They're real deal, no jive. I think they "opted to remain in the USA" a few years ago when they were part of a visiting delegation from Shaolin. __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 00:45:47 -0500 From: Khalkee@netscape.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Monks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In my meager understanding, only someone who has taken specific vows (made specific commitments) and follows a specific lifestyle can be considered a "monk". This extends from the traditions of Brahmacharya (celibacy, monk wannabe or "novice") and Sannyas (monk, no personal possessions, etc.). Muni is also monk, like Shakya muni, a monk from the Shakya family. There are shaytans (great liars) in all traditions though, 'ey? __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Warrior Monks To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 06:49:30 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Warrior Monks... In a western tradition think of the Knights Templar. They are one clear example of Warrior Monks. A pact between the Pope and King Philip IV of France had many of them captured on Friday, October 13, 1307, to later be tortured and killed. Thus beginning the legend of misfortune occurring on Friday the 13th... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:28:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] tactfulness Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Fred, being 'hapkidoish' has nothing to do with hapkido. There are many taekwondo instructors that teach what appear to be on the surface, hapkido techniques. They may not even have a grasp of hapkido basic motion. Don't let these type of techniques give you an impression that what you are seeing is hapkido. Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Laurie S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 11:05:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Breaking stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dave Weller wrote: <<<>>> Cool! I'm a big kid when it comes to breaking. I've done some weird ones. I did a speed punch (someone holds the board then drops it, and I punch at it, and break it ...... I did on the first shot WOOOHOOOO). I've done a 360 roundhouse speed break (single board). I did a jumping axe kick, broke the board and pulled my hammy last spring. Man, that hurt! What's everyone elses weirdest break? Well not weird as in goofy, but one you think you could never do but did, or ones that took "creativity" and technique to do. Laurie _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 15:10:06 -0800 (PST) From: Lanie Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] OT, was _Nice_Job!!!_ To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, Hope you don't mind my interjection here.... But wasn't the main object about Mr. Spiller's explanation to point out the difference between Biblical and Buddhist or Taoist attitudes toward sex, and not to be self righteous? The attitudes and hypocrisies of those claiming to be healthy are a different subject altogether? So, no need to defend here. ...neither of you are wrong; or other words, you're both correct. :) Nevertheless, ABSOLUTELY, to the last statement you made below about responsible behavior, Sir. Lanie --- bsims@midwesthapkido.com wrote: > Dear Chris: > > ".....That doesn’t sound negative about sex to > me. Just the > opposite, really....." > > I would > draw a line at > characterizing "Christianity bashing" as being > particularly popular or > commertial right now. My guess is that not a > few people of the moderate and > liberal aspects of many religions have simply > grown tired of being bullied > by the more conservative aspects of respective > Faithes. As a counter to the > self-righteousness of a conservatives' moral > high-ground most folks I know > use expose' of the inconsistencies, hypocrasy, > or wrong doings of the > champions of conservativism. Recent populist > press regarding the Orthodox > Jews frequenting bordellos in Tel Aviv, > Catholic priests molesting > children, and Evangelical preachers' > infidelities and financial > indiscretions are probably less a reflection on > the Faithes involved than > an attack on the community representatives of > these Faithes. > conversation is going > to dry-up pretty quick once people realize that > all such discussions will > repeatedly come back to responsible behavior--- ===== "So when the front is prepared, the rear is lacking, and when the rear is prepared the front is lacking. Preparedness on the left means lack on the right, preparedness on the right means lack on the left. Preparedness everywhere means lack everywhere." -Sun Tzu in "The Art of War" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Denise Lee" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Belt ranking system -- follow-up Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 21:30:45 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Again re: the belt system and its originating with Kendo. My previous posting on the matter suggested a connection with a swimming ranking system. Sounded nuts for sure :) But the answer didn't address the Kendo association. The following comprehensive explanation of Kano's invention of the rank system doesn't mention Kendo either. But it does mention swimming:) This was written by a well-respected Judo practitioner and historian who was gracious enough to give me permission to share with anyone interested in the matter. I do hope that someone might find it informative and helpful. "Yes, the rank system was Kano-shihan's invention. He was quite open about the fact that it was not created in a vacuum. Initially, he established a three dan system which was designed to parallel the licensing system of several of his old ryu. They used shoden, chuden, and okuden--first transmission of traditions, middle transmission of traditions, and transmission of secret traditions. "Den" means tradition or transmission. . . Chuden was equivalent to "menkyo" in some schools, with "menkyo" being a basic teaching license. Okuden was equivalent to "menkyo kaiden" or "license indicating everything has been transmitted". More literally, it is "license open transmission"meaning that this license evidences that all the ancient traditions have been "open" or "revealed" to this person. ("Oku" in "okuden" refers to the "innermost part".) ... Kano thought this was all pretty heady stuff and decided to just indicate "levels" or "steps" in the maturing process, hence "dan" instead of "den". Kano, being an intellectual genius as well as being physically gifted, had no clue as to how long the "maturing process" would take the normal human being. When he realized this three-step program was taking forever, and that he needed finer gradations to help him keep track of the progress of his students, he expanded the system. Following the Western-style school systems (he was a professor and educator), he implemented a 6 kyu, 12 dan system. The kyus represent essentially "remedial training". He assumed that the dans would be like school grades--12 dans, 12 years. . . . Historically, he only awarded 10th dan, and those tended to occur after decades of study and practice. Upon Kano's death, the Kodokan promoted Kano, who had never claimed ANY rank, to 12th dan, and retired forever the ranks of 11th and 12th dan. The colors reflected several things he had seen and thought. On the ancient Japanese battlefield, different colors of sashes and pennants/flags had been used to identify the participants on the battlefield. The relatively untrained "ashigaru" or foot soldiers at the front with their pikes were represented by a different color than the senior samurai archers in the middle and back of the formations, etc. This had carried forward into a system of colored sashes for swimmers and was finding its way into other activities. Given the prominence of the obi (belt) and the connection to the battlefield, Kano thought the colored sash system to be appropriate. He thought that the colors should get darker as you approach shodan since in the earliest dan (black belt grades) the student is the most confused. The student is learning and has "acquired" a large number of skills, but is, to some extent, separate from many of those skills. He/she still lives in a world of techniques. So the kyu ranks get darker as you advance. Then at black belt, you stay black belt in Judo until you reach 6th dan. At this level, the idea is that you have started to "see the light", to break through, hence red-and-white blocks on the belt. At 9th, 10th, and 11th dan, you have "seen the light", there are no more techniques, and you are becoming self-actualized as a human being--hence red belt. Ultimately, you rise above it all and return to the naturalness of the beginner, yet substantially different--hence white belt at 12th dan. Full circle. . . Kano's system was adopted by Butokukai and was taken on by many other arts, including karate. It was Butokukai who awarded Funakoshi Gichin Shihan his 5th dan--the highest rank he was ever to attain. For many years, 5th dan was therefore the highest rank in Shotokan karate." The three dan system of the early Kodokan persisted among many of the old-timers. As you can imagine, there had to be a transition. Thus, on the title page of the text by Aida-sensei called Judo Kosa (Judo lectures), it refers to Aida-sensei as "8th degree, 3rd and highest degree". Interesting? Also, the modern rank system was divided into yudansha and mudansha, or graded (dan ranks) and ungraded (kyu ranks), respectively. This follows a very old philosophical tradition of "yukei" (having form) and "mukei" (formless). The mudansha are those below black belt grade, and have not yet taken form (mukei). They have not been molded or shaped by the practice of martial art. The yudansha are those who hold black belt grades (or above), and have taken form. They have been molded or shaped by the practice and study. In Kano's mindset, you go full circle, back to mukei--you return to the formless, yet containing the form. You have escaped duality while becoming a fully self-actualized individual." Copyright © 2003 Steven R. Cunningham, All Rights Reserved. http://judo1.net All the best to all- Denise --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest