Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:23:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #59 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. The adult student with poor self esteem (Robert Block) 2. Re: Belt ranking system -- follow-up (Denise Lee) 3. Re: The adult student with poor self esteem (Jye nigma) 4. Re: Belt ranking system -- (Kirk Lawson) 5. Moja Kwan and other Korean Martial Arts (Charles Richards) 6. Re: Belt ranking system -- (Ray Terry) 7. Re: Belt ranking system -- (Denise Lee) 8. Re: The adult student with poor self esteem (Lanie) 9. RE: The adult student with poor self esteem (Wallace, John) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 07:34:21 -0500 From: Robert Block To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The adult student with poor self esteem Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been following the Dojang Digest with great interest for some time now and appreciate the many insights the authors have to offer. I recently began a martial arts ministry at our church with the intent of being able to help people develop. Does anyone have suggestions of dealing with adults of middle age who have low self esteem. I have my own ideas but am interested in the thoughts of those who have been around. For instance I have a 46 year old man who trained in everything, did everything, knows how to do everything, and yet has not gotten anywhere in life not even to black belt. His home-life, work-life and most assuredly his personal life by his own admittance are in disarray. His second day of class he brought with him a four page letter with his suggestions on how to run a martial arts school, his many personal difficulties both physically and emotionally, his difficulties with past instructors, and how nobody liked him because at a white belt level he could spar with the black belts and win. (My first instinct is to wash him out with a quick test to see how much he is willing to help himself and fast, yet I do claim to want to help since he asked for help. (I think I will add some questions to my new student enrollment form and interviews) (What did I get my self into? Here I go, patience Bob, patience and self control.) Bob --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Denise Lee" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Belt ranking system -- follow-up Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:34:13 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ??? No no, it was a very good write up. More complete than the abbreviated > form (from Steve Gombosi) that appears in the KMA FAQ. > Ray Terry Thanks Master Terry. I'm still a newbie at posting to this list, wanting to ensure that my own exuberance with the opportunity to share information with others -- especially when it's from a non-KMA source -- is appropriate. Looking forward to seeing you in MS in March- Denise --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 06:08:45 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] The adult student with poor self esteem To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Robert, since it is a martial arts ministry, the focus should be split, 1 learning martial arts for exercise, and self defense, and 2 to fellowship, and learn more of God. So the martial arts begins to build one's self esteem through excelling in the physical training, and discipline, but to really bring it home include God. My sister started a sports league for our kids at church and before we play we pray, and after we end with a closing prayer. Also you may want to have after class a men's and then women's ministry, this is where you can talk about things going on in the world and in our lives and what the Bible says to do about it....I truly believe this will help him and others greatly. There is something great that happens when men come together to help each other. Jye --- Robert Block wrote: > I have been following the Dojang Digest with great > interest for some time now > and appreciate the many insights the authors have to > offer. I recently began a > martial arts ministry at our church with the intent > of being able to help > people develop. Does anyone have suggestions of > dealing with adults of middle > age who have low self esteem. I have my own ideas > but am interested in the > thoughts of those who have been around. For instance > I have a 46 year old man > who trained in everything, did everything, knows how > to do everything, and yet > has not gotten anywhere in life not even to black > belt. His home-life, > work-life and most assuredly his personal life by > his own admittance are in > disarray. His second day of class he brought with > him a four page letter with > his suggestions on how to run a martial arts school, > his many personal > difficulties both physically and emotionally, his > difficulties with past > instructors, and how nobody liked him because at a > white belt level he could > spar with the black belts and win. (My first > instinct is to wash him out with > a quick test to see how much he is willing to help > himself and fast, yet I do > claim to want to help since he asked for help. (I > think I will add some > questions to my new student enrollment form and > interviews) (What did I get my > self into? Here I go, patience Bob, patience and > self control.) > > Bob > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:23:00 -0500 From: Kirk Lawson Organization: Heapy Engineering To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ("THE$DOJA@SMTP {the_dojang@martialartsresource.net}") Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Belt ranking system -- Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Ray Terry > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Belt ranking system -- follow-up > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:26:35 -0800 (PST) > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > > > Intesting info about the swimming connection. That > portion was new news. > > > Thanks. > > > > Sorry to have perhaps bored you with the rest of it. Such > an explanation > > of rank meaning is not something I've ever encountered in my KMA > > experiences. I thought that perhaps some others might not have > > encountered such information either. > > ??? No no, it was a very good write up. More complete than > the abbreviated > form (from Steve Gombosi) that appears in the KMA FAQ. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com Here is a link to the KMA FAQ (Korean Martial Arts Frequently Asked Questions): http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/koreanm a.htm Steve also made a similar (almost word for word) entry for the RMA FAQ (rec.martial-arts usenet newsgroup) where he is a regular poster. I've never seen him on this list and I don't recall him mentioning any KMA training or even interest. Perhaps the KMA FAQ entry was lifted directly from the RMA FAQ. Though this would be within the terms of the RMA FAQ license, it would still be nice if the KMA FAQ made reference to the RMA FAQ. I'm not going to make waves over it though. A (relatively recent) copy of the RMA FAQ and the Newbie Guide (if I may plug it) can be found here: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/martial-arts/ and here ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-hierarchy/rec/martial-arts Note: The most recent version of the Newbie Guide is 1.2a, but 1.01 is the most recent *posted*, 1.01a, 1.2, and 1.2a have not been posted yet. Matthew (the FAQ maintainer) also has a number of additions and revisions for the FAQ proper that he has not included yet due to his schedule. Peace favor your sword --- "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use." -Achille Marozzo, 1536 --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:38:04 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Moja Kwan and other Korean Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Now, again, let me ask, how do you then characterize what you do and teach to your students and your community in general? <> Dear Bruce, I teach Moja Kwan Tang Soo Do. Or one could say I teach Tang Soo Do. I hold out to my students that I am teaching "Korean Karate." 90% of what we do is based on Korean martial arts so one might say I teach Korean Martial arts. Oops we do the Shotokan forms as Funakoshi probably taught them to GM Lee, W.K. Allthough Master McHenry and I are pretty close to each other in interpretation and performance of hyung, he does remind me at times I am doing a hyung in a more "Shotokan manner" than "Koreanized/TSD/MDK manner." I try to instill all the values of martial arts as a Do/Tao and not only a sul. As I study and look at concepts and others cirricula, one might say I teach a hapkido like martial art with Shotokan forms . I am deeply flattered by what GM Timmerman posted, and would agree "what does this coach have to offer" is more important than what flypaper does he have on the wall. That's more or less is our theme at our school. I have no certificates on the wall at my dojang. and I do not list my rank in any advertising (one of my students slipped it into the web site, but I have asked her to take it off). I want people to come to our dojang and see if training in our group has anything to offer them. So far I've just been lucky that the bills are written out of the studio account. I don't use the center red stripe belt and prefer that my students use Sabum instead of Master Richards. Actually more of the parents use that tittle because they can't pronounce SBN :-) Bruce, because of the strainer that my knowledge of these forms came through, I would have to say that what we do is more Japanese Shotokan motion than Okinawan (Te) motion. As to GM Timmerman's comments about my basic motion and concepts I can only thank mentors like Master Allison, Master McHenry, Master Hodder, Master Weichel, and Master Charlie Lee. All under the watchful eye of GM West. GM Timmerman brings out another point I agree with. I am all about my students imprinting basic concepts in their mind and basic motions to muscle memory. I am opposed to memorization of technique over concepts. I agree I am constantly challenging myself to disgues ways for my students to get enough reps on basic motions so that it starts to look fluid. When I look at senior ranks testing, I'm more concerned with how "crisp" their basics look that how many ways to kick, or how many forms or one steps they know. Train with Jung DO in your hearts The rest is commentary, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Belt ranking system -- To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:43:36 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Steve also made a similar (almost word for word) entry for the RMA FAQ > (rec.martial-arts usenet newsgroup) where he is a regular poster. I've > never seen him on this list and I don't recall him mentioning any KMA > training or even interest. Perhaps the KMA FAQ entry was lifted directly > from the RMA FAQ. Though this would be within the terms of the RMA FAQ > license, it would still be nice if the KMA FAQ made reference to the RMA > FAQ. I'm not going to make waves over it though. Feel free if you wish... :) I was/am a contributor to the RMA FAQ and provide a link to it as well as a copy (the downloadable copy a bit out of date, tho) via martialartsresource.com. Permission was requested and received to include Steve's write-up. Plus you will note that his name and email addr are clearly provided. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Denise Lee" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Belt ranking system -- Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:53:06 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Lawson noted-- > Steve also made a similar (almost word for word) entry for the RMA FAQ > (rec.martial-arts usenet newsgroup) where he is a regular poster. I've > never seen him on this list and I don't recall him mentioning any KMA > training or even interest. Cunningham-sensei's interest in KMA is only for sharing info and learning from each other. He's wealth of information re: the history, technical and philosophical aspects of judo, at the least. My posting was the content of a personal communication with him, which he gave me permission to post here. (I hadn't considered the KMA FAQ as I'd remembered the swimming connection -- with him as the source -- so I asked a mutual friend and received the reply from Cunningham-sensei.) Thanks for the reminder about the KMA FAQ and the info re: the newbie guide, though:) Denise --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:54:32 -0800 (PST) From: Lanie Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] The adult student with poor self esteem To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ohhh, I like these statements and questions. This might hit home for alot of folks. While I like precious Jye's comments because they come from good will, and sincerety. (No Jye bashing here) I would like to agree with them, I don't agree that martial arts is a ministry. It depends on why one is studying it, and alot of folks will say they're not in it to minister to others because the term sounds religious which scare's 'em. No? It can be a ministry because it helps people, and one always will learn about life, people, themselves, and God when studying a good martial art as in any art they pursue. When studying any art with the purpose for learning about God comes into play, God will use it to teach about Himself, and He'll use almost any good thing for that, BTW. But it's true that people who help people brings about a great "fellowship" or club, or singular purpose because one strengthens another. Great things happen. I love that fact you're teaching martial arts as a ministry. What about this man who is 46 and accomplished, but hasn't completed what he started all through his life? What is he afraid of? Is it success or failure? Of being termed "a loser"? There's something behind that in his behavioral patterns. I'm no psych.,but have read, listened to, studied many self help books for years, and still are. Got lots of 'em ;). What if I were to suggest that you encourage him while finding a clean way to humble his pride. How do I know? How else? ;) Help him pinpoint what his fear is, and take steps to get past it. Most low self-esteemers have a good reason to feel that way, but NOT a good reason to keep feeling that way. Um, I'm not done yet on this one. But that's more than likely enough about that right now. Awesome subject--how to help people!!! Taekwon, Lanie --- Jye nigma wrote: > Hi Robert, since it is a martial arts ministry, > the > focus should be split, 1 learning martial arts > for > exercise, and self defense, and 2 to > fellowship, and > learn more of God. So the martial arts begins > to build > one's self esteem through excelling in the > physical > training, and discipline, but to really bring > it home > include God. My sister started a sports league > for our > kids at church and before we play we pray, and > after > we end with a closing prayer. Also you may want > to > have after class a men's and then women's > ministry, > this is where you can talk about things going > on in > the world and in our lives and what the Bible > says to > do about it....I truly believe this will help > him and > others greatly. There is something great that > happens > when men come together to help each other. > > Jye > > --- Robert Block > wrote: > > I have been following the Dojang Digest with > great > > interest for some time now > > and appreciate the many insights the authors > have to > > offer. I recently began a > > martial arts ministry at our church with the > intent > > of being able to help > > people develop. Does anyone have suggestions > of > > dealing with adults of middle > > age who have low self esteem. I have my own > ideas > > but am interested in the > > thoughts of those who have been around. For > instance > > I have a 46 year old man > > who trained in everything, did everything, > knows how > > to do everything, and yet > > has not gotten anywhere in life not even to > black > > belt. His home-life, > > work-life and most assuredly his personal > life by > > his own admittance are in > > disarray. His second day of class he brought > with > > him a four page letter with > > his suggestions on how to run a martial arts > school, > > his many personal > > difficulties both physically and emotionally, > his > > difficulties with past > > instructors, and how nobody liked him because > at a > > white belt level he could > > spar with the black belts and win. (My first > > instinct is to wash him out with > > a quick test to see how much he is willing to > help > > himself and fast, yet I do > > claim to want to help since he asked for > help. (I > > think I will add some > > questions to my new student enrollment form > and > > interviews) (What did I get my > > self into? Here I go, patience Bob, patience > and > > self control.) > > > > Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > > The_Dojang mailing list > > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial > Arts > > Resource > > > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign > up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ===== "So when the front is prepared, the rear is lacking, and when the rear is prepared the front is lacking. Preparedness on the left means lack on the right, preparedness on the right means lack on the left. Preparedness everywhere means lack everywhere." -Sun Tzu in "The Art of War" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] The adult student with poor self esteem Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:06:58 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wow - if I may (my psych credentials are as impeccable as Mrs Clum's) it looks to me as though your student is busy sabotaging his new relationship with you Robert. If I was you, I'd thank him for his observations and suggestions, then encourage him to offer them to God during prayer. Perhaps by meditating on his own words he'll come to realize the self-centeredness inherent in them. Personally, I wouldn't directly comment on them to him. If he acquires the self discipline to actually progress through ranks, humility will probably come...and he might eventually die of embarrasment at his white belt hubris. Good luck to you - whatever you do, if you value him as a student don't attempt to "put him in his place" or cause him to lose face. He'll quickly scratch you up as another person unworthy of his effort. I've seen a few of this species of personality come through the doors of our dojang - few of them made it even to 6th gup (where we get a lot of washing-out) John W. I Dan, TKD Fremont, CA -----Original Message----- From: Lanie [mailto:chryl3787@yahoo.com] What if I were to suggest that you encourage him while finding a clean way to humble his pride. How do I know? How else? ;) Help him pinpoint what his fear is, and take steps to get past it. Most low self-esteemers have a good reason to feel that way, but NOT a good reason to keep feeling that way. --- Jye nigma wrote: > --- Robert Block >His second day of class he brought with > >him a four page letter with his suggestions on how > >to run a martial arts school, his many personal > >difficulties both physically and emotionally, > >his difficulties with past instructors, and how > >nobody liked him because at a white belt level he > >could spar with the black belts and win. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest