Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 06:12:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #61 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Bruce's thought (Ray Terry) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Mirror,_Mirror,_on_the_wall.....?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. RE: The adult student with poor self esteem (Lanie) 4. Re: The adult student with poor self esteem (Lanie) 5. Re: Hapkido/Charles Richards (ABurrese@aol.com) 6. WTF school in Iowa (Joe Gorges) 7. Re: Des Moines TKD (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 8. Re: WTF School in Iowa (Michael Rowe) 9. re: Low Self Esteem (long post) (Lasich, Mark D.) 10. Hyung and Te (Charles Richards) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:30:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce's thought Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I notice that you are really sensitive to the issue of developing sound > body movement and fluidity. Have you ever considered using the Okinawan > versions of the various Korean hyung towards this end? I believe that not > only would it increase fluidity, but that the Okinawan approach uses > greater range of motion, and also provides perhaps a wider range of > application or interpretation. Actually, it seems to my perhaps uneducated eye that the Okinawan forms have a lesser range of motion than do the associated Shotokan forms. As we know, Funakoshi changed the forms he learned. It seems to me that he made the movements more dramatic to perhaps improve their use as exercise, i.e. in a PE class. Whereas the Okinawan forms seem to me to have tighter movements more in line with standup grappling and pressure point applications. ??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:18:00 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Mirror,_Mirror,_on_the_wall.....?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bob: ".....Does anyone have suggestions of dealing with adults of middle age who have low self esteem....." Yes, I have some suggestions but they begin with the care-giver and not with the person you are identifying. MA could be a truely big help to folks with personality disorders but there are a few caveats. You said that you started the the mission as a function of activities at your church. It has been my experience that most efforts done under the auspices of a church seem to invariably come out of the position of "what is broke?" or "what needs fixing?". I would ask you to consider that a person with low self-esteem is not "broken" but needs guidance --- not intervention--- to achieve the goals they set for themselves. Which brings up point number two. Did Mr L-S-E ask for you guidance? If so, what goals did he set for himself? Nothing is more frustrating than a life-guard who is bound and determined to save a swimmer intent on drowning. Let Mr. L-S-E itemize three goals in single sentences of 25 words or less and take it from there. While we are at it, there is a third point-- and again this one is for you. What is your purpose for starting the mission? By that I mean, what will be fundamentally different about you for having done this work? If your effort has no Purpose (internally determined motive)but only a Reason, then what you are doing is empty motion. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:00:30 -0800 (PST) From: Lanie Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] The adult student with poor self esteem To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Missssster Wallace, Sir, my thanks for the compliment. :D. You said; I didn't! However, I must clarify, here, that I was not encouraging that the student be put in his place. I like your suggestions much better than that option; good advice! The outsmarting way is much better, with respect, than someone blatantly and insensitively "showing someone what they are". Most of the time, a person won't see it, or doesn't see it. That's esp. true of people with low self-esteem. Notice I said, "a clean way". A way that would overtly expose or humiliate him because this would be violating his dignity, and much less necessary. Again, great advice Mr. Wallace. Respects, Lanie --- "Wallace, John" wrote: > Wow - if I may (my psych credentials are as > impeccable as Mrs Clum's) it > looks to me as though your student is busy > sabotaging his new relationship > with you Robert. then encourage him to offer them > to God during prayer. Perhaps > by meditating on his own words he'll come to > realize the self-centeredness > inherent in them. Personally, I wouldn't > directly comment on them to him. > If he acquires the self discipline to actually > progress through ranks, > humility will probably come...and he might > eventually die of embarrasment at > his white belt hubris. > > Good luck to you - whatever you do, if you > value him as a student don't > attempt to "put him in his place" or cause him > to lose face. He'll quickly > scratch you up as another person unworthy of > his effort. > > ===== "So when the front is prepared, the rear is lacking, and when the rear is prepared the front is lacking. Preparedness on the left means lack on the right, preparedness on the right means lack on the left. Preparedness everywhere means lack everywhere." -Sun Tzu in "The Art of War" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:04:45 -0800 (PST) From: Lanie Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] The adult student with poor self esteem To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Block, I reread your post. I want to offer another suggestion. It sounds that this man is going through quite a crisis. What if you were to find a way to suggest that he get professional councilling? Sounds as if there are some realities that he's just not in touch with. He's got some deeper wounds. Respects, Lanie --- Robert Block wrote: > I have been following the Dojang Digest with > great interest for some time now > and appreciate the many insights the authors > have to offer. I recently began a > martial arts ministry at our church with the > intent of being able to help > people develop. Does anyone have suggestions of > dealing with adults of middle > age who have low self esteem. I have my own > ideas but am interested in the > thoughts of those who have been around. For > instance I have a 46 year old man > who trained in everything, did everything, > knows how to do everything, and yet > has not gotten anywhere in life not even to > black belt. His home-life, > work-life and most assuredly his personal life > by his own admittance are in > disarray. His second day of class he brought > with him a four page letter with > his suggestions on how to run a martial arts > school, his many personal > difficulties both physically and emotionally, > his difficulties with past > instructors, and how nobody liked him because > at a white belt level he could > spar with the black belts and win. (My first > instinct is to wash him out with > a quick test to see how much he is willing to > help himself and fast, yet I do > claim to want to help since he asked for help. > (I think I will add some > questions to my new student enrollment form and > interviews) (What did I get my > self into? Here I go, patience Bob, patience > and self control.) > > Bob > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ===== "So when the front is prepared, the rear is lacking, and when the rear is prepared the front is lacking. Preparedness on the left means lack on the right, preparedness on the right means lack on the left. Preparedness everywhere means lack everywhere." -Sun Tzu in "The Art of War" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:56:26 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hapkido/Charles Richards Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've read the last few digests with interest. I've made a number of posts at various places about Hapkido schools, and schools that teach a few techniques from Hapkido and say they are also a Hapkido school. Thing is, Hapkido schools are Hapkido schools. Hapkido is a full art that is not just something you add on the side. However, there is nothing wrong with someone taking some techniques or whatever from Hapkido and introducing these to their art to supplement an area their art may be lacking in. The key is to tell your students what you are doing. This would be okay: "I teach TKD, but I incorporate some hapkido techniques at times to add a little to the program." This I don't care for: "I teach TKD and HKD" Unless of course the instructor saying this really had trained in both arts. Unfortunately, I've seen many out there that are TKD with just a few HKD techniques and are now calling that HKD. I could go on and on, but you get my point. As for Master Richards, I have found him to be a man of integrity, and he is in the former category of above. He tells people what he does, and what he teaches, and uses the HKD he has learned to supplement his other teaching, and doesn't call it what its not. And the funny thing is, as GM Rudy pointed out, Charles is better at HKD than many people I have seen that claim to teach HKD. I've had the pleasure of being on the mat with Charles, and I would never hesitate of having him at my back, no matter what the situation. We had a good time doing wrist locks on each other, and he enjoyed the little variation I showed him of sort of rolling your hand into the lock without losing touch of your opponent. And besides having the strength to break most people in half and being a very accomplished martial artist, Charles is an honest, polite and respectful man with strong family values, and that goes a very long way in my book. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Joe Gorges" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 23:45:17 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF school in Iowa Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Farrell's US Martial Arts is a very good school in West Des moines. His website is http://www.farrellsusma.com/...all the information you need will be there. Hopefully this helps. Respectfully yours, Joe Gorges _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 7 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 01:21:00 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Des Moines TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Does anyone know of a WTF School in the West Des Moines, Iowa area. Stanley A. Wright Master, Golden Dragon TaeKwon Do Fairbanks, Alaska" i'd recommend master farrell's tkd: www.farrellsusma.com if nothing else, they put on a great tourney ;) good luck, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com 573-673-2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com 877-847-4072 --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 07:24:52 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: WTF School in Iowa Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net How about Lance Farrell's Schools in Des Moinse? http://www.farrellsusma.com Make sure you tell him I sent you :) Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 08:53:41 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] re: Low Self Esteem (long post) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Block, In regards to your adult student with low self esteem...The replies so far have been very good and insightful, so I thought I would add some ideas from my viewpoint: I believe that self esteem is not something that can just be turned on. Like a seed, it must be planted, nurtured, and given sufficient resources to grow. He can no more turn it on, than we instructors can instill it in one class. It will take time. Given this, we know that adults learn differently than kids, and that physically adults MAY (I know, we've recently had this discussion) not be able to physically perform at the same level as some of our teens. This said, I would focus on helping this individual establish immediate, short term, and longer term *specific* goals - in an atmosphere of respect and compassion. Each success, each accomplishment, and "great job" comment from you will help the seed grow. Physical performance could center around proper technique, memorization, focus, timing, and attitude. Granted, these may not be the attributes your student believes are important, instead trying for power, speed, height, etc., but they will serve to establish the foundation of your art, and help give that feeling of accomplishment. The "immediate" goals are probably something that you come up with in each class, "Tonight we will be working on.....and your challenge/goal is to......" This reinforces the goal setting, and achievement, through positive reinforcement. Now, about the letter, and attitude: I would accept the letter, and say something like, "Thank you for your input, I will review your suggestions and let you know if I have any questions." - Even if you threw it in the trash! BUT, if he has trained "in everything" there may just be a nugget in there that can help you. You never know, sometimes God helps us in ways we are not expecting too! Attitude? The hardest part, and the root of the problem. I think I would try adjusting this by going back to the short term and long term goals you helped (will help) this individual set. This can be the reference point, or the framework that you can operate in: "Well, Mr. X. this is an important step for me to help you achieve your goal." Referencing some historical Master: "Grand Master Kee once said you could practice 1000 punches a day, every day for 10 years and still have something to learn.....So while we've done this technique before, we can always learn something........" can sometimes make the repetition of basics easier for some students. Admittedly, over the years I have seen low self esteem adults come and go, with the instructors having little impact. I have also seen children with Attention Deficit Disorder show remarkable improvement after just a few classes! The important thing that I have learned is that these are the martial arts, and that each person has different capabilities. Tournaments exist if people want to prove that on any given day they are better than someone else, but within the Dojang, the challenge is YOURSELF, and one goal is to better YOURSELF. Working with students as individuals, knowing where they started from, we instructors can help them grow and improve. Part of this is that each student can help each other. When working with PARTNERS, each student definitely needs to practice their techniques, but also allow their partner the ability to practice. Your white belt can out spar Black Belts? Perhaps, but your white belt needs to understand that while he is demonstrating his ability, he should also give his partner equal opportunity. Lesson: don't dominate the match. If you are that good offensively, perhaps he should work on some defense, while his partner is on the offense! Not who wins this match, but are each given the opportunity to practice offense/defense? This requires a mental discipline to help guide the physical abilities, and here is where your ministry comes in. Like the Um/Yang (Ying/Yang) you need that balance of mental-spiritual/physical abilities of the martial arts. It all fits together, and is all part of the training you have to offer, if he will accept it! You may even suggest: "Mr. X. I know you've trained elsewhere, and have some experience, so I need YOUR help to demonstrate to the other students how we exercise control while sparring." This alone may make him feel like he is contributing, while he is learning, and growing that self esteem seed! Well, obviously, I could go on and on. I wish you much success in working with your student. While he may need to "empty his cup" so that you can fill it with what you have to offer, perhaps this experience will help you, too, learn and grow in how to work with students like this. He probably won't be your last student with some/all of these concerns! In the spirit, Mark --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 06:01:18 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hyung and Te Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Have you ever considered using the Okinawan versions of the various Korean hyung towards this end? I believe that not only would it increase fluidity, but that the Okinawan approach uses greater range of motion, and also provides perhaps a wider range of application or interpretation. I also find that broader range of motion does wonders for opening the hips and shoulders of students (and old farts like me). For my part I tend to examine more of the Chinese because I am of a mind that the Okinawan and the Korean cultures, each in their way, were more of a conduit for Chinese culture coming off the continent than being imported on to the continent. Of course, thats just my take on things. There are tons of materials on Okinawan traditions if you are interested. <> Dear Bruce, Yes I'm interested in some good sources on Okinawan traditions and body mechanics as it relates to the hyung and/or kibon/kihon __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest