Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 14:33:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #62 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Good Hapkido School in Tampa Florida area (Tim Chaffee) 2. Re: Good Hapkido School in Tampa Florida area (Ray Terry) 3. TSD with HKD (Charles Richards) 4. Hapkido (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 5. Low self esteem (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 6. The Self-Esteem Thing (Yarchak, Mary Kay) 7. Pan American Qualifier (fwd) (Ray Terry) 8. Request for Comments: Books (Strength Exercises/Stretching) (ingoldb@mchsi.com) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Range_of_Motion_Stuff_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 10. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Hyung_and_Te_stuff_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 11. Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Hyung_and_Te_stuff_?= (Ray Terry) 12. Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Range_of_Motion_Stuff_ (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Tim Chaffee" To: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:20:41 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Good Hapkido School in Tampa Florida area Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello everyone. I usually am in lurk mode and post once in a great while. I really enjoy this list and all the great discussions that go on. I am looking for an authentic Hapkido school, that teaches mainly or only Hapkido, in the Tampa, Florida area. I already train in TKD and would like to supplement my training with some Hapkido or Aikido if I can not find a good Hapkido school. Does anyone have any thoughts on how Aikido compares to Hapkido(there is a good Aikido school not far from me)? I am also trying hard to make arrangements to make it to Master West's Hapkido Seminar March 7! Thanks, Tim Chaffee "A mind all logic is like a knife all blade. It makes the hand bleed that uses it." - Rabindranath Tagore --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Good Hapkido School in Tampa Florida area To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 06:28:07 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I am looking for an authentic Hapkido school, that teaches mainly or only > Hapkido, in the Tampa, Florida area. I already train in TKD and would like > to supplement my training with some Hapkido or Aikido if I can not find a > good Hapkido school. Check out Master Nabors' HKD dojang, "Korea Martial Arts" on Bell Soals Rd. in Valrico. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 07:46:48 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD with HKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> As for Master Richards, I have found him to be a man of integrity, and he is in the former category of above. He tells people what he does, and what he teaches, and uses the HKD he has learned to supplement his other teaching, and doesn't call it what its not. And the funny thing is, as GM Rudy pointed out, Charles is better at HKD than many people I have seen that claim to teach HKD. I've had the pleasure of being on the mat with Charles, and I would never hesitate of having him at my back, no matter what the situation. We had a good time doing wrist locks on each other, and he enjoyed the little variation I showed him of sort of rolling your hand into the lock without losing touch of your opponent. And besides having the strength to break most people in half and being a very accomplished martial artist, Charles is an honest, polite and respectful man with strong family values, and that goes a very long way in my book. <> OK I'm not going to be able to fit my big head in my tiny little dojang, neh? I'm humbled and honored. As far as HKD ability, that's just me "showing up to class" and Master Allison (and his mutants) being patient enough to polish on this stone. Now here's a mental image, someone with Alain's upper body strength and someone as big as me joint locking each other...we must be nuts (or committed to learning good martial arts). In addition to sharing some mat with Alain in MS I had the pleasure of spending some time with him and his lovely wife at the famous "Woods Restaraunt." I'd have to say he has a good dose of strong family values also. As far as "getting your back" Alain, I'd be comfortable following your point or getting your back in any situation. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:52:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Alain, I wish I had a copy of the post you made on the instructors group about this subject. It would be a great asset to this topic. If you have a copy of it, consider posting it here. Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com BTW. Had a visitor last night at the dojang, who said he was a chodan in hapkido from a traditional taekwondo/hapkido dojang. His 'hapkido' certificate was a taekwondo one from the kukkiwon. He said that before he moved here he had just learned the 'traditional' hapkido forms of sai 1,2 and 3. Once again, we have a taekwondo teacher somewhere (I did not ask what city) who thinks that hapkido is something you add to taekwondo (or whatever he was teaching). Very sad. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:01:20 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Low self esteem Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The problem with many martial arts teachers is that they try to wear to many preverbal hats. We are not psychologists, monks, etc., and if we try to be what we are not, we are providing a disservice to the martial arts. I took enough psychology in college to know that I should not try to give that kind of advice. For the person who originally asked this question, I would not try to play therapist and I would shy away from any advice from someone who is not a professional in this field. Bruce is the only one on this group who is a professional 'shrink', that I know of. Just my opinion. Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Yarchak, Mary Kay" To: 'Dojang Digest' Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:24:59 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] The Self-Esteem Thing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As I was reading Bob's description of his new student, my heart went out to him. His description of the guy reminded me very much of a life-long friend of mine who has not to my recollection, since I met him in kindergarten, taken responsibility for anything that has gone awry in his life. And trust me, a bunch of stuff has gone awry... but it's his Mom's fault since she didn't teach him how to manage money (he's always broke and up to his eyeballs in credit card debt -- mainly because he helps himself to feel better by buying assorted cool power tools)... and it's his Dad's fault because he had an affair when my friend was a kid... and it's his boss's fault (that changes every 6 months or so because everywhere he works takes unfair advantage of him)... you get the picture. Anyhow, he actually does have professional help. He goes to a counseling center once a week and has done so on & off since just after high school (we are in our mid 40's). He periodically gets a new counselor when staff at the center turns over. I was taking to him a couple weeks ago and asked about his new counselor. He said she was OK and proceeded to relate that when he was telling her about some things that were wrong in his life she cited a really messed up family incident in our local news at the time and intimated that perhaps his life wasn't that bad. His response (and I quote) "I couldn't believe she said that. I pay her to talk about MY problems." In other words, I wouldn't expect many miracles. Good luck, Bob. It may be your teaching that helps to change the pattern. If not, at least you cared enough to try to be there for the guy. The friend I mention above really is my FRIEND: a good guy, kind, considerate, fun to hang out with when he isn't in the depths of a funk, and although a tad high-maintenance at times, a good person to know and the relationship is well-worth the effort. MK --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:59:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Pan American Qualifier (fwd) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarded message: The official dates for the Pan Am Qualifier is April 5-6, 2003 in Colorado Springs, CO details will come soon, the location and how to apply. **************************************************** The OTC Resident Team went to the Inca Open below is the list of athletes and coach that attended and their results. Coach Han Won Lee Cody Aguirre No medal Jason McEuin Bronze medal Stephanie Beckel Gold Medal Nia Abdullah Gold Medal Jaime Houston Gold Medal **************************************************************** US Taekwondo Union One Olympic Plaza Ste 104C Colorado Springs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 --__--__-- Message: 8 From: ingoldb@mchsi.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 20:11:07 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Request for Comments: Books (Strength Exercises/Stretching) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, I've had some access to the "Superfoot" Wallace's book on strength exercises/stretching & have found some very good additions to my routine. Would anyone be willing to share their opinions on titles that they would recommend (or not)? Kind thanks, Brian --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 14:07:41 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Range_of_Motion_Stuff_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: ".....Actually, it seems to my perhaps uneducated eye that the Okinawan forms have a lesser range of motion than do the associated Shotokan forms. As we know,Funakoshi changed the forms he learned....." Before I get started lets remember that "range of motion" is not just the limits of the range, but also the productive use of that range to accomplish a task. That said, let me say that you are absolutely right about Funakoshi and his intent to make Okinawa-te into a character-building calesthetic rather than keep it solely as a fighting art. Much of this is outlined in his book "KARATE-DO KYOHAN" (ISBN 0-87011-190-6)and again in his autobiography "KARATE-DO: MY WAY OF LIFE" (ISBN 0-87011-241-4). The REAL engineers, however, seem to have been his son, Gigo and M. Nakayama, late of the Japanese Karate Assn. It is reported that Gigo suffered from chronic repiratory distress and for this reason may have modified motions even after his father reorganized the curriculum. You can see the result of this if you read Nakayama's book "DYNAMIC KARATE" (ISBN 0-87011-037-3) which takes a very analytical view of explaining why motions are done in the manner that they are. That said, by now you are probably asking yourself "where the hell is this going"? The fact is that Karate when shifted from the Okinawa-te that Itosu taught Funakoshi and what Funakoshi taught in Japan were markedly different. Itosu had modified things as well, but not as much as did Funakoshi and his son. The result is that if you look at the stances of Funakoshi, sr. in his book, and later of the stances of Nakayame et al in his "Best Karate: series on katas it is plain that the stances modeled by Funakoshi are more up-right and compact, while later stances are widened and elongated. However, the blocks and strikes in BOTH cases are much tighter, and work strenuously to remain within the silouette of both the defender and the attacker he is countering. What this means is that one uses a very tight Up- Downward, Inside-outside, Outside-Inside and Knifehand blocks. However, such attendant blocks as the entire range of Palm Blocks, parries such as the Round Block ("mawashi uke"), Inward and Outward Scooping Blocks and so forth have been marginalized, or eliminated, all together. The result as I see it is that the blocks that are done provide an adequate representation of coverage for the chest and head of the defender in a tight and effective configuration within the silouette of the body. However, the wider range of coverage, and wider catalog of techniques has been abridged and so the body is not exercised in its widest capability. If you like we can compare the "koryo" or "older" kata of Okinawa-te to their Shotokan counterparts. Uechi-ryu is derived from Chinese Boxing and in its earliest conception by Uechi himself, had only three Kata. One of those kata was SEISAN which I believe is renamed HANGETSU in Shotokan. Comparing the rigid, constricted way Ohshima performs Hangetsu in Funakoshis' book and the dynamic way Uechi performs Seisan in the masterwork published by George Matteson there is simply no comparison. Whatismore, such things as repeatedly explaining those times in Shotokan kata when hands work in close proximity to each other as "reinforced" this and that, once again causes the student to use shortened, more abrupt motions. Many of these motions are locks and submission holds which, when done with a larger motion, become apparent in their own right. (The "reinforced block/side kick" combination half-way through BASSAI comes to mind in this case.) Just as a closing thought, and not meant in any way as an attempt to diminish the contributions of the late Gichin Funakoshi, I would share the following historical context. When the Okinawans were asked to send a representative to demonstrate Te to the Japanese, Motobu and Miyagi were both cosidered. However, Motobu was dismissed out of hand as being too "course" and Miyagi as being too "nationalistic" regarding his pride in Okinawan culture. Funakoshi was seen as more refined and diplomatic and he got the opportunity. However, not a few Okinawans bristled at what they saw done to their arts in Japan. Later they were seemingly vindicated when Japanese practitioners started coming to Okinawa, after the War, seeking the roots of what was practiced in Japan, but with a more pragmatic (read also "combat practical") interpretation. I still heartily encourage folks who practice Koreans arts derived in part from Japanese traditions to take another step and follow the path back to Okinawa. Research the kata as executed in this other manner and at least consider integrating the execution of a more combat-oriented manner into aspects of your hyung. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 14:18:31 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Hyung_and_Te_stuff_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Charles: ".....Yes I'm interested in some good sources on Okinawan traditions and body mechanics as it relates to the hyung and/or kibon/kihon...." Believe it or not, when I first started in MA back in 1973 there were actually no such thing as VCR-s and only rarely were there movies (8mm) of MA material. Most people relied on books and manuals. We have really come quite a ways in 25 years, ne? That said, rather than cite an overwhelming number of books and manuals let me suggest that you but two items. One is the book by John Sells on the history of Okinawan martial arts. It has an exotic name which I think is spelled "Uchinadi" or something like that.(I loaned my copy out and am STILL waiting for it to come back. IMPORTANT NOTE: Do not loan your copy of this book.) I forget where I bought my copy but it came with a dynamite wall chart of the various lineages of many styles--- some that I had never even heard of! The reason I mention this is because it has an EXCELLENT section on the history of various katas. Once you have that-- go out to the newstand and get a copy of the DRAGON TIMES. Now I should warn you that DT has recently undergone a change and as of this last issue will be published under another name. Every copy, though, has a centersection with scads of VCR tapes on the arts and their hyung/kata. You would be much better served to see the kata done in motion than trying to piece it together from pictures. Between these two purchases you should be on you way to delving into the arts behind the art you are practicing. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Hyung_and_Te_stuff_?= To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 14:10:38 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Believe it or not, when I first started in MA back in 1973 there were > actually no such thing as VCR-s and only rarely were there movies (8mm) of > MA material. Most people relied on books and manuals. We have really come > quite a ways in 25 years, ne? 30 years. > One is the book by John Sells on the history of Okinawan martial arts. It > has an exotic name which I think is spelled "Uchinadi" or something like > that.(I loaned my copy out and am STILL waiting for it to come back. > IMPORTANT NOTE: Do not loan your copy of this book.) I forget where I > bought my copy but it came with a dynamite wall chart of the various > lineages of many styles--- some that I had never even heard of! The reason > I mention this is because it has an EXCELLENT section on the history of > various katas. Unante, The Secrets of Karate. 2nd Edition, 2000. John Sells and W.M. Hawley Library. Panchita S. Hawley, Publisher. ISBN 0-910704-96-1. As I recall it isn't found in some of the usually places. I think I found my copy via a Google search. Lots lots lots of history, lineage charts and a few old photos. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 14:13:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Range_of_Motion_Stuff_ Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net snip snip snip snip > ... If you like we can compare > the "koryo" or "older" kata of Okinawa-te to their Shotokan counterparts. Finally... > Uechi-ryu is derived from Chinese Boxing and in its earliest conception by > Uechi himself, had only three Kata. One of those kata was SEISAN which I > believe is renamed HANGETSU in Shotokan. Comparing the rigid, constricted > way Ohshima performs Hangetsu in Funakoshis' book and the dynamic way Uechi > performs Seisan in the masterwork published by George Matteson there is > simply no comparison. Whatismore, such things as repeatedly explaining > those times in Shotokan kata when hands work in close proximity to each > other as "reinforced" this and that, once again causes the student to use > shortened, more abrupt motions. Many of these motions are locks and > submission holds which, when done with a larger motion, become apparent in > their own right. (The "reinforced block/side kick" combination half-way > through BASSAI comes to mind in this case.) Again, to my eye the movements in the Okinawan forms are tighter as they are usually joint locks and breaks. In the Shotokan kata they were usually changed to blocking and punching techniques and are therefore more robust. Take the Naihanchis/Tekki as an example. Foot stomps in Shotokan, side steps in Te. Full range-o-motion blocks in Shotokan, joint locks in Te. Perhaps I am basing too much on those forms. And all within 70 words. Whoops, 75 words. Whoops, 79... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest