Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:19:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #70 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Welcome (Troy Trudeau) 2. Haidong Kumdo vs. Kumdo/Kendo (J T) 3. Condolences to the Lee family and students (J T) 4. kumdo - gumdo (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 5. Martial Sport (Ray Terry) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Thanks,_Ray_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. RE: Lee Won-kuk and Chon-ji patterns (Franz, Kevin J (Kevin)) 8. Re: Re:_Thanks,_Ray_ (Jye nigma) 9. Re: Condolences to the Lee family and students (Lanie) 10. RE: Lee Won-kuk (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:37:15 -0800 (PST) From: Troy Trudeau To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Welcome Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Welcome to the DD SBN Navarro, Sincerely, Troy Trudeau NKMAA, WTSWA.Com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 06:32:40 -0800 (PST) From: J T To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Haidong Kumdo vs. Kumdo/Kendo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Haidong Kumdo is more Chinese in flavor than Japanese. If you watch their forms you will see a lot of the moves resembles that of the broad sword. This is because its practice stems from the MYTBJ. Regular Kumdo is Kendo. Kumdo also has cutting forms (Kumsul) which is similar to the Kenjitsu. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 06:33:42 -0800 (PST) From: J T To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Condolences to the Lee family and students Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would like to send my condonlences to the Dojunim Lee's family and students. The martial art world has lost another great pioneer. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:10:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] kumdo - gumdo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, kumdo and gumdo are two different ways to spell the same thing. In Hangul they are written the same. The k/g sound is one of the 14 consonants (not counting double consonants) in Hangul. The sound is between the k in a word such as kiss and the g in guide. Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com Jye said: 'What's the difference between kumdo and gumdo?' --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 07:43:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Sport Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Andy's name seems familar. I fear that Andy might have been talking about me. I recall first using that description for Taekwondo in about 1986, plus or minus a year. If not on rec.m-a (RIP), probably Bruce Israel's old martial arts dist list. Now I don't recall hearing or reading it previously, but one would think someone surely would have used the phrase 'martial sport' instead of just the term 'sport' prior to that, but I cannot find it. ??? Especially given the development of Judo, I'd think martial sport would have been used in that related literature prior to '86. Yet I don't find it. Dakin??? Ray Terry > The earliest entry I could find in the old Deja-news archives on Google was > from Oct, 1990 > > ...begin quote.... > From: Andy McFadden (fadden@cory.Berkeley.EDU) > Subject: Re: Arrogant martial artists > Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts > Date: 1990-10-28 22:16:37 PST > > In article <27761@usc> kurtzman@pollux.usc.edu (Stephen Kurtzman) writes: > >In article <24670032@col.hp.com> dunphy@col.hp.com (Dan Dunphy) writes: > > [snip] > >>own, I struck up a conversation with a black belt who was > >>present. He began straightaway with the derogatory comments. "Black belt > >>in TKD, huh? Bet ya got beat by a white belt in Isshinryu, right? Hyuk > hyuk." > > I've heard TKD referred to as a "Martial Sport", by somebody who should have > known better. I don't think it's completely because of bad schools, but > because people tend to equate TKD with sparring. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:38:16 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Thanks,_Ray_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: One of the nice things about this Net is that we have the chance to squelch mis-information before it gets out of hand. ".....So then kumdo is to kendo as Haidong Gumdo is to Kenjutsu. To your original question, Kumdo vs. Gumdo. Just two different romanizations. As I understand it, "K" and "G" are oft interchanged during the romanization exercise. Thought from the experts???......... >From what little Hai Dong Gum Do I've seen, it is far more similar to Kenjutsu than it is to Kendo.............." The original question was asking the difference between "kumdo" and "Gumdo". Ray is right on the money. Its a matter of translation, or transliteration of characters among the Chinese ideograms, Japanese hirakana and Korean Hangul. Is it "kumdo", or "kum-do", or "Gum-do" or "Guem-do".....? I have seem the term used a number of ways and just like "Hapkido", "Karate" and "Kung-Fu" the term for Korean sword is rapidly becoming a generalized term to refer to a wide range of practices associated with a large Korean activity. There is quickly becoming less and less correlation between what is done and what it is called. If it is of any help I could suggest some guidelines I have been made aware of during my practice. These are VERY loose but might be of some guidance. 1.) Kumdo (with or without the hyphen) refers to Korean swordsmanship as it is generally practiced, but tends to focus on those sword methods heavily influenced by Japanese tradtiions. A large portion of "Kumdo" pratitioners in Korea practice Kendo and are in fact members of the IKF through the Korean Kumdo Assn. They use Kumdo because it is the Korean rendering of the same Chinese characters as "Kendo". Makes sense right? Now hold on to your seats. 2.) Kumdo (Kum= sword, do=way) is ALSO used to describe those folks who practice Korean sword which is as much influenced by Chinese as Japanese traditions. Sometimes to delineate one from another these groups also use a more phonetic spelling ("Guem-do")to keep it separate from the more Kendo oriented people. Some Hae Dong Kumdo people do this, others just use the standard "Kumdo" when identifying themselves. 3.) If you practice Korean sword less as a sport and more as a method you might call what you practice "Kum Bup" ("sword method" or "sword form") and individual portions of your curriculum might be called Kum Sool ("sword technique") or bon ("routines"). I practice HwaRang Guem Bup. It is related to HwaRang Kumdo except that rather than practicing an art heavily influenced by Japanese sport application, I train to use the sword as a weapon. This relates not only to the Hapkido curriculum, but it also is in keeping with the original use of the sword in Korea as a weapon and not as an icon or recreation. I use the phonetic spelling to ensure that folks don't confuse what I do with the sport practice of bamboo sword and armor. My practice includes a LOT of routines (both one-man and two-man form) as well as practice cutting. It also requires a lot of research into older swordwork such as one finds in the MYTBTJ. BTW: Just for the record, the comment made about "Kumdo" being like "Ken- jutsu"---- well, I use the same allusion myself because it IS a handy one. However, this is still a good example of what I commented on a while back about how Korean MA are always being characterized as compared to something else rather than taken on its own merits. Maybe this is of some help--- Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Franz, Kevin J (Kevin)" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:28:42 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Lee Won-kuk and Chon-ji patterns Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Long time reader - First time poster . . . Regarding Mr. Stovall's question: >So, was Lee Won-kuk the sole author/originator of the Blue Cottage forms >(Chon-ji patterns)? I'm just wondering if he himself created these forms >when he founded his Kwan, or did they originate over time through >collaboration with his top students and training partners? Or do we know >for sure? > >Thanks > >Craig "Not Spouting Opinions for Once" Stovall Let me contribute at least a little bit. I belong to an off-shoot of the ITF called the Universal TaeKwon-Do Federation (UTF) which was founded in 1980 by Han Cha Kyo, one of the first graduates of the Chung Do Kwan. Grandmaster Han also worked very closely with General Choi and the ITF for many years, and was a featured member of the early demo teams. Within the UTF we perform the Chon-ji patterns (WITHOUT the "sign-wave," but that's another topic!). We were taught that the patterns were indeed a product of individual students. And further, we were taught that the pattern Hwa-Rang was the creation of Grandmaster Han. Three points to note: 1. I always assumed that General Choi commissioned Grandmaster Han to create his pattern for the ITF (and the others too??), however I never directly asked the question and it *could* have occurred in the Chung Do Kwan days. I'll see if I can find any other information as to the timeline of its creation. 2. We were never taught who created any of the other patterns. It was just a side note when students reached the Hwa-Rang pattern that "this is the pattern that Grandmaster Han created." There were no similar side notes for any of the other patterns. 3. This is strictly an oral history passed down within our school. I have no hard documentation for it, and unfortunately Grandmaster Han passed away in 1996. So . . . that's at least what I've been taught. I'm not sure if that added any new information, or just muddied the waters! Sincerely, Kevin Franz 1st Dan, UTF --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:53:14 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:_Thanks,_Ray_ To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net BTW: Just for the record, the comment made about "Kumdo" being like "Ken-jutsu"---- well, I use the same allusion myself because it IS a handy one. However, this is still a good example of what I commented on a while back about how Korean MA are always being characterized as compared to something else rather than taken on its own merits. Maybe this is of some help Yes it makes since. I had to associate kumdo with something I understood, since I had never heard of kumdo before. So I made the reference between kendo and kenjutsu because one is a sport and the other was used for the battlefield. But now I understand it. It's so hard to think of Korea as having it's own fighting system because of the influence of china and Japan. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:24:29 -0800 (PST) From: Lanie Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Condolences to the Lee family and students To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, Not trying to be insensitive, but would someone please reiterate what has happened? I missed this initail posting. Thank you kindly, Lanie --- J T wrote: > I would like to send my condonlences to the > Dojunim > Lee's family and students. The martial art > world has > lost another great pioneer. > > Jeremy > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's > Day > http://shopping.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ===== "Always remember--a Black Belt is just a white belt who didn't quit" -KJ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:51:33 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Lee Won-kuk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray writes, <<>> OK, now I'm more confused than usual. I saw where Jhoon Rhee was listed as a Chung Do Kwan graduate, and I'm almost 100% positive that he was teaching the Chon-ji patterns when he first came here. The reason I say this is because he had the old book series though Ohara in which he showed the Chon-ji patterns as well as some "applications", and also the fact that one of my TKD lineages comes from Rhee from WAY back in the day (before he started wearing silk pants, and rubbing elbows with Congress) and we did the Chon-ji forms there (as well as Bassai, and Chulgi, and a few others that are not usually shown as part of the "Chon-ji set"). So, I assumed that Rhee brought the Chon-ji patterns from his training at the Chung Do Kwan, and since Lee Won-kuk was the HKIC (Head Korean in Charge) there I assumed that these were his patterns. No? If so, then did somebody else besides Lee Won-kuk devise these patterns within CDK? Or, did Rhee get them from outside the CDK group (from somebody in Choi's group, maybe)? Somebody help me out here. I'm confuzzled. Craig "Normally Doesn't Care About This Stuff, but I'm Feeling Nostalgic" Stovall --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest