Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:32:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #72 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Rhee's Forms (Charles Veuleman) 2. Lee Won Kuk and the Chon Ji forms (Nathan Miller) 3. Spellings of "kumdo" and other sword stuff (A. Boyd) 4. Re: martial sport (Michael Rowe) 5. Prayers for Michael and Family (J T) 6. Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #59 - msg No 1 :The adult student with poor self esteem (Robert Block) (Raymond Navarro) 7. RE>monopoly (MW) 8. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Welcome_to_the_Real_World?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Had_a_thought....?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 10. Re: Prayers and postive thoughts wished (Robert Martin) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:13:38 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Veuleman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Rhee's Forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ....of my TKD lineages comes from Rhee from WAY back in the day (before he started wearing silk pants, and rubbing elbows with Congress) and we did the hon-ji forms there (as well as Bassai, and Chulgi, and a few others that are not usually shown as part of the "Chon-ji set"). So, I assumed that Rhee brought the Chon-ji patterns from his training at the Chung Do Kwan, and since Lee Won-kuk was the HKIC (Head Korean in Charge) there I assumed that these were his patterns. No? If so, then did somebody else besides Lee Won-kuk devise these patterns within CDK? Or, did Rhee get them from outside the CDK group (from somebody in Choi's group,maybe)? Somebody help me out here. I'm confuzzled. Craig "Normally Doesn't Care About This Stuff, but I'm Feeling Nostalgic"Stovall.... Craig, I think that everybody wants to relate their system, in some form or fashion, back to Jhoon Rhee. Many times I read websites that try to do this through the 'group' of forms that a school practices. As far as I can tell, and I may be very wrong, as far as official sets that could be practiced at this early boom of TKD/Korean Karate, were only about a hand full. I think you had folks doing the TangSooDo/Early TaeKwonDo forms of Pyong An(Heian)/Chul Gi(Tekki)/Pal Sek(Bassai)/Yun Be(Empi)/etc.. as a Korean model from the Shotokan set. This is what MOST probably Rhee came to Texas teaching, WAY before the goofy satin and congressmen. Then I think shortly afterward you had some other TKD sets come about, like the Chon Ji forms. Now their is all kinda stuff, the Pal Ge's, later replaced by Tae Gueks, the ATA's songham set, then reinterpretation of ALL of these. To me, schools that still practice the Shotokan-type set either didn't want to change to the new stuff because they liked what they were already doing, or they wanted to capitalize on tradition and its benifits, or both. Schools that changed to any other set are just keeping up with the times, and thats cool too. Well, then there are schools that may do combo's of both, which could be pretty neat. I think this came about from schools doing the Shotokan set, then slowly adding the newer forms, but maybe not all of them. In the end, it is all up to that instructor what is best for his students, so I am sure a combo package of forms from each set would be desired by some. I prefer however to just use one set, if I was going to do chon ji form set, i would be hardcore into that, and dedicate myself to learning the in's and out's of them. My school practices the shotokan set, so that is what I place my 'karate obsession' in. I have been in alot of schools that do only the chonji set, some good, some bad, but I would love to see these forms done by somebody who also performs the shotokan set for their base. I think it would give it an interesting twist...Maybe. Then again maybe it would just look goofy. As always, these are just my personal veiws, open to opinions and such. Thanks for the time. YITMA, Charlie Veuleman ===== ------------------------------------- L. Charles Veuleman Natchitoches Karate Institute 204 Rapides Drive Natchitoches, LA 71457 318-356-7727 http://www.bluewavekarate.com ------------------------------------- --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:30:04 -0800 (PST) From: Nathan Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Lee Won Kuk and the Chon Ji forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig writes: > OK, now I'm more confused than usual. I saw where > Jhoon Rhee was listed as > a Chung Do Kwan graduate, and I'm almost 100% > positive that he was teaching > the Chon-ji patterns when he first came here. The > reason I say this is > because he had the old book series though Ohara in > which he showed the > Chon-ji patterns as well as some "applications", and > also the fact that one > of my TKD lineages comes from Rhee from WAY back in > the day (before he > started wearing silk pants, and rubbing elbows with > Congress) and we did the > Chon-ji forms there (as well as Bassai, and Chulgi, > and a few others that > are not usually shown as part of the "Chon-ji set"). > > So, I assumed that Rhee brought the Chon-ji patterns > from his training at > the Chung Do Kwan, and since Lee Won-kuk was the > HKIC (Head Korean in > Charge) there I assumed that these were his > patterns. No? If so, then did > somebody else besides Lee Won-kuk devise these > patterns within CDK? Or, did > Rhee get them from outside the CDK group (from > somebody in Choi's group, > maybe)? Now that I have properly changed my subject line... :) When Jhoon Rhee FIRST came to the US he was teaching Pyong An, Chul Gi, Pal Sek, etc - the Tang Soo Do forms, essentially. At the time, he called his art Tang Soo Do, or Korean Karate. Now, while Rhee was over here Lee left for Japan and Son Duk Song took over as head of the CDK. He encountered problems with Gen. Choi who ran the Oh Do Kwan, which was really a sub-school of the CDK. Choi began creating his own set of patterns at this time, feeling the need for a "more Korean" set of forms. He taught both sets of forms at the same time for a little while. I've read conflicting stories on this, but Choi may have become the head of the CDK at some point. But at any rate, he visited the US, including Jhoon Rhee in Texas. He convinced Rhee to begin using the new set of patterns - the erason those books are availabel nearly everywhere. This gave Choi and the new International Taekwon-do Federation a strong foothold in the US. Later Rhee would found his own style and leave Choi to do his thing. So we have really three lines from Rhee - the Pyong An/Tang Soo Do line, the Chon Ji line, and the new set line (I don't know the name of the set). We - my school - can trace our lineage back to Rhee's first American black belt and the man that brought him to the US, Atlee Chittim - we still do the Pyong An set. Allen Steen does a strange combination of the two - the combo you mentioned. As to whether others helped Choi create the Chon Ji forms: it's possible. He is supposed to have created a good many of them while in prison. There are now... 26, I think. The original 24.. then one was replaced in the 80s... and I've been told that another was replaced within the last few years. That's a lot of forms for one man to create in a few short years. Nathan --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 03:28:24 -0500 (EST) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Spellings of "kumdo" and other sword stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Everyone has beaten me to the answer that the difference between kumdo and gumdo is spelling. Master Hilland's explanation was perfect. Due to the flexibility of some of the romanization methods between Korean and English and the limitations in Hangul and the English alphabet there can be a lot of confusion. Add to this the desire to categorize and identify that Bruce wrote about and you get a nice stew. This stew gets simmered by the huge number of martial businessmen trying to copyright and register every term they can in order to control and profit from whatever art it is they sell or prove who is the most authentic, original, talented, or whatever. A lot of these variations in spelling come more from marketing something "new and different" than from phonetics, clarity or anything else. (BTW Bruce: guem? That's a bizarre one. Where on Earth did this one come from? Geom is the new way of writing the word under the government's latest system, preceded by gum, gom, kum, kom... *sigh*) As I have grown a little tired of constantly having people approach me using English with Japanese vocabulary to ask questions about what the Korean sword art I practice when English vocabulary is far superior to the task for an English speaker(and more culturally sensitive) I now have a knee-jerk reaction to comparisons of arts. Let me be totally clear: this reaction is 100% my problem, not the fault, flaw or responsibility of another. There are a vast number of kendo schools in Korea. The Korean pronunciation of the characters, as Bruce mentioned, is kumdo. This all lends to the impression that Korean swordsmanship is simply kendo with a different vocabulary. In many cases that perception is true but not all cases. Depending on whose school you enter you might learn pure kendo, modified kendo or something totally different. By far the majority of sword schools in Korea teach kendo sparring plus other. The other can be various but it always comes advertised as 100% pure Korean swordsmanship dated straight back to a believable period of the instructor's choice. More marketing. Why kendo sparring? Until recently there really was no other safe option and it's hard to break the chains of preconception. Among the "something totally different" schools in Korea is Haidong Gumdo also known as Haedong Kumdo. They used to be the same thing. Marketing split them apart into two similar spellings framing a mostly identical curriculum. In the beginning, when their federation was new, they selected the name gumdo as it was recognizeable and they wanted to focus on Do (character improvement) versus pure technique (sul). Also, they could get more students as the general Korean populace is leery of things which are uncommon. Even though there is little to no similarity between Haidong Gumdo and any branch of the popular conception of kumdo, they took that as a part of their name. The idea worked and Haidong Gumdo is now the second largest sword style in Korea. Now, however, we are stuck with endless comparison. The typical kumdo student in Korea learns how to use the bamboo sword, learns to spar, learns step drills, learns some forms, learns to use a real sword, learns to cut targets (primarily soft ones) and all the while is expected to be on a journey of self-improvement. The focus of the techniques tends toward 1 on 1. The typical haidong gumdo student in Korea learns how to use the wooden sword, learns simple unarmed technigues, learns basic ki-gong, learns many forms, learns step drills, learns to use real swords, learns to cut hard and soft targets (primarily hard ones), probably learns to use the bamboo sword, if so they learn to spar non-competitively with bamboo sword (full body), and all the while is expected to be improving their character. The focus of the techniques tends toward 1 on many. In the end, both groups strive for the same goal, using the same real weapon through totally different training regimes which overlap in certain areas but look almost nothing alike. They are stuck with the same root name and some kind of adjective. I hope this was more helpful than I am now starting to fear it is. Anthony Boyd www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:52:57 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: martial sport Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I heard it first in 1982 in reference to Judo, wrestling (Freestyle, > Greco-Roman), Sambo, and Kendo. These were now considered martial sport > because of the preoccupation with competition verses other aspects of the > form. <> Well the sources I remember was my high school wrestling coach who was also versed in Judo. It was in a discussion with him and a few other wrestlers who were studying martial arts/sports and the effect that competition has had on them. I also remember a article in the USA Wrestling Newsletter talking about the evolution of the martial sport of wrestling. Michael Rowe Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 06:10:54 -0800 (PST) From: J T To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Prayers for Michael and Family Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael, My family and I will keep you in our prayers. Good luck and God bless. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 06:24:47 -0800 (PST) From: Raymond Navarro To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #59 - msg No 1 :The adult student with poor self esteem (Robert Block) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi and be blessed Bob. I am a Hapkido Teacher now fro 26 years and have TaeKwonDo & Tangsoodo Black Belt leves way back from the early 70. Etc, Etc, Etc. and I beleive you (if I have it right, you are a preacher ?!?) Anyway you can talk to that person/student and ask him as a comment that if he would like to get out of that stuck up system of life circle that he keeps faling into that if he is willing to make some changes. First I would like to know what style is it that you are doing ? Then you can ask him to get in with the curriculum that you have for your style's art and if he is willing to walk it remind him that he is a very valuable person and when you do this to confirm it ask him if he thinks that that is true or not ! Then ask him to go beyond that wish he always reach that is to be able to spar black belts and bit them but he in the rase of achievements has lost and ask him do you not thing that it is the time for him top be an achiever ? ask him again Then do you not think that it is time to put the work and achieve your black belt ? For now this is the best thing that I can tell you with teh exception of a tale: i have a student that is that same way; almost no one bits him in kicking and sparring, with 14 years experience in both of this Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do. I gave him a chance to train with me and corrected all his stretches, Kicks, stances and ways of blocking and punching plus faling. Hi worked out through Blue Belt and then that was it ! Then in time going by calls, comes by and always complaints that he is nto yet a Black Belt with his time and eperience and so so & so ! This is the most he has reached in a martial art. is going to do training with the best around and is always mentioning in a questionable comment that he is better than most Black Belts. The truth is that only he has the will and the power to make the changes needed. HAP Ramon Navarro Hapkido SabomNim SongMooKwan Hapkido Panama City Panama Today's Topic: 1. The adult student with poor self esteem (Robert Block) >-- __--__-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 07:34:21 -0500 >From: Robert Block >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] The adult student with poor self esteem >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >I have been following the Dojang Digest with great interest for some time now >and appreciate the many insights the authors have to offer. I recently began a >martial arts ministry at our church with the intent of being able to help >people develop. Does anyone have suggestions of dealing with adults of middle >age who have low self esteem. I have my own ideas but am interested in the >thoughts of those who have been around. For instance I have a 46 year old man >who trained in everything, did everything, knows how to do everything, and yet >has not gotten anywhere in life not even to black belt. His home-life, >work-life and most assuredly his personal life by his own admittance are in >disarray. His second day of class he brought with him a four page letter with >his suggestions on how to run a martial arts school, his many personal >difficulties both physically and emotionally, his difficulties with past >instructors, and how nobody liked him because at a white belt level he could >spar with the black belts and win. (My first instinct is to wash him out with >a quick test to see how much he is willing to help himself and fast, yet I do >claim to want to help since he asked for help. (I think I will add some >questions to my new student enrollment form and interviews) (What did I get my >self into? Here I go, patience Bob, patience and self control.) > >Bob _____________________________________________________________ Get a web-based email for life now ---> http://mail.hapkidokr.org _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: 13 Feb 03 08:46:36 -0600 From: MW To: the_dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] RE>monopoly Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Welcome_to_the_Real_World?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mark: "......The question for the DD is have any of you run into this before? As commercial school owners or volunteer community school instructors? For the life of me, I cant see why they feel that they should have a monopoly....." Sometimes I get raked over the coals for having the position I have regarding KMA. Unfortunately you are getting a pretty good taste, first hand, of what results from the conditions I have been bitching about for the last few years. It seems that you are an independent and so is the other party. Even so, I wouldn't expect--- even if you WERE a member of some organization that they would step in and arbitrate the situation. They would simply tell you to work it out for yourselves. Your membership dollars at work, ne? I have also heard not a few stories of territoriality on the part of KMA schools where a new person opening a school in a territory already claimed by an existing school is told to push-off--- or else. Nothing like a little fraternal love and support, yes? Personally, this sounds like the same commercial crap that crops up time and again. Mr and Mrs "Commercial School" don't like having competition and have probably been going over old copies of the current MA Business magazine in their area looking for an angle. Believe it or not I still get crap like this even on a college campus --- from other MA programs looking to jockey for "premier" status in the college hierarchy. Mr & Mrs CS don't have a leg to stand on, but that doesn't mean they don't have an edge. The city counsel is made up of people who don't know anything about MA, and will be avoidant of the issue if at all possible. Like parents, they are not interested in being fair, only in keeping things quiet. If Mr & Mrs CS make enough noise, the Council will act in their favor just to shut them up. Your job, should you choose to accept it, is to make just as much noise in your favor. Print up a hand-out with five or six bullets refuting their position. Speak-out at the council meeting and make sure that the council knows that you are teaching for FREE. If you have credentials, this is the time to use any paper you have tucked away. This is what all the credentialing and licensure stuff is supposed to be about anyhow. Get your supervisor to make a case. He won't want to get involved but ask him anyhow. Get your students to say something. Ask them if they want to pay higher tuition just to pay Mr & Mrs CS' mortgage. In the end it will all be a subjective call on the part of the city. Variables will include such issues as "who gets least offended", "which way makes better economic sense for the town", and what is the path of least resistance. I know it sucks, but this is much closer to the face of REAL KMA in the US than a lot of that romantic clap-trap about HwaRang warriors and who is teaching the "authentic" KMA. Good Luck. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:10:58 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Had_a_thought....?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rudy: "......I wonder what causes you, or anyone else for that matter, to have a hard time thinking of Koreans having their own martial arts. IMHO, original combat techniques are found wherever there was a need to defend one's property or life. Fighting techniques are not something that was brought to Korea from China or any other place. IMHO, unless it killed you, a good technique observed by ANY person (or group) in need of combat skills was sure to be "picked up" by other practitioners wherever they happened to see it. This is as true now as it was in ancient history......" Its sad to say but from what I am finding as I do my research its actually the Korean peoples own fault for Jye getting stuck with his position. You don't have to go back a whole lot of months to see what happened in TKD when Gen Choi died. And, for years before that, the ITF and WTF have been vying with each other to see who would get that all-important spot at the top of the mountain. Hapkido is split among five major organizations and gawd-knows how many smaller organizations. I won't even get into the way that Koreans ignore their own traditions, or how many times we, here on this Net, have challenged contrived stories by people who know better--- know the truth---for the misrepresentation they perpetrate.The main point is that factions and internal contention seem to be rife across all aspects of Korea culture and this does little good for getting the staight story about them as a people. As I see it the strength of the KMA, and the Korean people themselves remains their ability to adapt what is offered them and put their own spin on it. Whatever we can identify as coming from China or Japan it remains that the Koreans have taken this material and made it their own. And, as you say, thats not to say that the Korean people themselves weren't able to develop methods of their own just based on their own experiences. We would probably know more about this, again, if the Koreans would stop being so damn reluctant to let people know more about them and the more intimate side of their histories. I guess you can take the Korean out of the "Hermit Kingdom"--- but you can't take the "hermit" out of the Korean, ne? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 06:59:46 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Prayers and postive thoughts wished Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mr. Rowe, Being the father of two c-section babies and the grandfather of one c-section baby I can certianly understand your concern. Rest assured that our thoughts go out to you and your wife. Robert Martin --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest