Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:03:02 -0800 Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #73 - 16 msgs From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Buttons, Babies, and Buttheads (Burdick, Dakin R) 2. T'aegweondo is a martial sport (Burdick, Dakin R) 3. Re: habgido.com (was the spelling hankumdo) (Klaas Barends) 4. Re: Re:_Had_a_thought.... (Jye nigma) 5. Re: Re: habgido.com (was the spelling hankumdo) (Ray Terry) 6. Well wishes (Rudy Timmerman) 7. Re: Re:_Had_a_thought.... (Ray Terry) 8. Territoriality in KMA (FirstPe315@aol.com) 9. Dr. Kimm's magazine covers (Chris Holmes) 10. Re: Re:_Had_a_thought.... (Jye nigma) 11. Evolution of martial arts (Rudy Timmerman) 12. Re: Chon Ji forms (Robert Martin) 13. dojang monopoly (DrgnSlyr5@aol.com) 14. Re: Territoriality in KMA (Jye nigma) 15. Participation/Waiver form... (Jason E. Thomas) 16. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Sword_Lineage_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:20:19 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Buttons, Babies, and Buttheads Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First: > To those who are familiar with these things - how do you use the little > button on the left hip with the elastic loop on the right hip? Personally, > I yank off the elastic and ignore the button, but its something I've > wondered about... Personally I cut off both the elastic and button. Michael wrote: > just send us postive thoughts You've got it Michael! I'm not a prayer kind of guy, but all of my best wishes and positive energies go to your family! Mark Gajdostik wrote: > At the start of the year I started teaching again. 3 classes a week. I > am teaching as a volunteer for the city, and do not get paid for my services. > The students pay only a $15/month admin fee to the city, none of that goes to > me. The money gained will go for equipment like bags, mats, belts etc., to > benefit the students. I do make a bit of cash on uniforms & sparring gear. Your rival school obviously sees you as a threat commercially and are using the right tactics to get rid of you. Why are their tax monies going to support your school? It is a very strong argument. Kill it by renting the space from the city and handling all the finances yourself, then either store the equipment in the storage space you have now rented, or donate the equipment to the local program (tax deduction), with the proviso that it should be used only for your program to reduce wear and tear. That takes away the argument from the other school. Let us know how it goes, as I'm sure this is a difficulty that many of us could hit. I haven't had a problem in the 10 years I've been doing a similar program for the city, so I'm hoping that seniority of the program will start to play in my favor, but I could see it happening here too. > If they wanted to do the program, they should have expressed interest. That should be their next move, if you keep running the program as you are. They should ask for equal time to run a similar program. They will probably charge more for it, of course! :) Good luck to everyone! Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:23:00 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] T'aegweondo is a martial sport Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: "I recall first using that description for Taekwondo in about 1986, plus or minus a year." I don't know about the date for the use of "martial sport" in the literature. I imagine that it derives first from the practice of boxing and wrestling, and probably was applied to them in 1970s to differentiate them from the "martial arts" that were (by definition) assumed to be all from East Asia. If one looked at some of the encyclopedia of sport rules from the late 1970s, I bet you could find the term. Since the late 1980s, there has been an increasing tendency to classify boxing and wrestling as martial arts (a general category) and then differentiate the arts based on characterizations, ie: martial sports (or combative sports) martial theater (or stage combat) self-defense police defense unarmed combat (or combatives or close-quarters combat) Personally, I would class t'aegweondo as a combative sport. Just to make sure Ray isn't the only one. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:33:06 +0100 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: habgido.com (was the spelling hankumdo) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Everyone has beaten me to the answer that the difference between > kumdo and gumdo is > spelling. Master Hilland's explanation was perfect. Due to the > flexibility of some of the > romanization methods between Korean and English and the limitations in > Hangul and the > English alphabet there can be a lot of confusion. Add to this the > desire to categorize > and identify that Bruce wrote about and you get a nice stew. This stew > gets simmered by > the huge number of martial businessmen trying to copyright and > register every term they > can in order to control and profit from whatever art it is they sell > or prove who is the > most authentic, original, talented, or whatever. A lot of these > variations in spelling > come more from marketing something "new and different" than from > phonetics, clarity or > anything else. For a few seconds my heart stopped beating when I saw that my browser was actually loading http://www.habgido.com/ :-) Habgido is the 'new' name for hapkido ofcourse, if you follow the latest romanization rules. -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:47:30 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:_Had_a_thought.... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net --- bsims@midwesthapkido.com wrote: > Its sad to say but from what I am finding as I do my > research its actually > the Korean peoples own fault for Jye getting stuck with his position. Not sure what that means as far as being stuck in my position? But the reason why I have a hard time believing that Korea has its own ORIGINAL martial arts system today because I look at Hapkido, ship pa gal, TKD/TSD, Hwarangdo, KSW, just to name a few and they are all from other martial arts. I check out the history and whether they mention it or not when you see the art in action you can see the influences of kung fu, or some japanese art. Now I'm not saying that Korea doesn't have a rich history, culture, ancient martial arts I'm just saying I would love to experience the Pure Korean martial art. > From what I understand, (and please correct me if my info is wrong), when japan occupied Korea, alot of the korean martial arts died, and alot of their....I guess historical books, martial arts manuals, etc were destroyed? Some one let me know if that is correct. I always here references of ancient Korea stemming from either 1 or 2 books, surely their is more. *The history of Korea being occupied by the Japanese reminds me of the african slave trade....forced to learn a new language, losing your identity, losing alot of your culture, and then in a way having a new culture once freed. Now there is another way to look at it. Since alot of Korean martial arts stem from Japanse or Chinese influence, they have the best of both worlds. Jye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: habgido.com (was the spelling hankumdo) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:49:38 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > For a few seconds my heart stopped beating when I saw that my browser > was actually loading http://www.habgido.com/ :-) > > Habgido is the 'new' name for hapkido ofcourse, if you follow the > latest romanization rules. Good one. And if you check the whois database, someone in Korea has reserved that domain name. It looks like the website is still under construction. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:58:20 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Well wishes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My very best wishes for a healthy delivery to Michael Rowe and his family. Congratulations on your new book as well. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:_Had_a_thought.... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:59:58 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > are all from other martial arts. I check out the > history and whether they mention it or not when you > see the art in action you can see the influences of > kung fu, or some japanese art. Now I'm not saying that > Korea doesn't have a rich history, culture, ancient > martial arts I'm just saying I would love to > experience the Pure Korean martial art. Check out Taekkyon. It doesn't seem to my eye to be like any you mention. The kicks of Sin Moo Hapkido come more from Taekkyon than they do from Karate or TSD or TKD or ... But then Taekkyon is one of those martial sports. And, as you say, it -was- almost lost during the long period of abuse Korea endured under Japanese rule. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:38:59 -0500 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Territoriality in KMA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I dont' know if it's only just a story. From what my instructor told me it is a common thing in Korea that if you "talk" a lot (like wannabees do in our country), expect a visit. And common courtesy is that you don't open up a school within a certain distance of an already pre-existing school. My instructor used to call them "cultural exchanges". He had one when he opened a school 1 block from a traditional Japanese Karate Federation school in Beaverton, OR. Well, sure enough they came to visit one afternoon with some of his black-belts and went "balls to the wall". Needless to say, in this encounter, Junki Yoshida and his local JKF found the error of messing with Hapkido men. Although I believed the story I thought deep down that maybe my instructor embellished this a little over the years until Is started teaching private Judo lessons to a Karate black-belt who called our school one day looking for some training. After we talked for quite a while it so happens that his Instructor was one of the one's that got "beat up" that day and told him the story himself. Funny. Personally, I'm still waiting for mine. Of course I hope it doesn't happen (maybe just a little....) Jeff P.S. Maybe it's more a Japanese issue. I've heard the same about them, especially when it comes to Non-Asians. In a message dated 2/13/2003 10:32:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > I have also heard not a few stories of territoriality on the part of > KMA > schools where a new person opening a school in a territory already > claimed > by an existing school is told to push-off--- or else. > Nothing like a little > fraternal love and support, yes? --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:04:27 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dr. Kimm's magazine covers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello to all, I have been searching all over for some of Dr. Kimm's magazine covers. I have been unsuccessful so far. If anyone has a September 1975 Blackbelt with Dr. Kimm doing a double flying sidekick, and you would consider letting it go please contact me. I would also like to have the April(?) 1986 with him throwing Master Jamie Serio it anyone has one that they would part with. I've found the latter on E-bay but was out bid in the last 2 min. I would also be interested in any other magazine covers he has made. Thanks Chris Holmes _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:06:46 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:_Had_a_thought.... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, I'm going to check out Taekyyon in one second. But let me also say that what adds to my questioning of purely Korean arts is that when I studied WTF I was taught that TKD came from the hwarang, or should I say has lineage to the Hwarang of ancient Korea. Then years later I find out that that is not true at all and how TKD is not an ancient martial art. i really felt like other arts like KSW, hwarang-do, really came from hapkido. Since at some point each of the mentioned systems's founders studied hapkido at some point. Please correct me if I'm wrong. There is even mention that Hwarang do may be KSW with some changes made by the lee brothers. Jye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:17:49 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Evolution of martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > As I see it the strength of the KMA, and the Korean people themselves > remains their ability to adapt what is offered them and put their own > spin > on it. Whatever we can identify as coming from China or Japan it > remains > that the Koreans have taken this material and made it their own. Hi Bruce: I understand that this must be a nightmare for scholars and historians, but I firmly believe that natural evolution of martial art techniques will continue to be around forever. As you mentioned in your post, there is a certain strength that comes with making the most out of a newly learned technique and "make it your own". In my school, I try to impress on my students that "making a technique their own" is essential to having it work best for them. I am sure that in the old days (when their very life might depend on it) martial art practitioners did no less, and so the martial arts of the world continue to evolve as we speak. I don't envy historians in their tremendous task of keeping it all sorted out, and I am sure this problem is compounded by the fact that many practitioners have over time claimed this, that, and the other thing to further their own cause. Long ago, superiority of technique and strategy (part of good technique) was decided in war. Later on, one simply walked over to a competitor's dojang to sort it out right there. This practice was quite prevalent not too long ago, and we even had some Dojo/Kwoon/Dojang fights here in the good ole US. Some old timers might even remember the Count Dante incident. I had a first hand experience with this when my Instructor, GM Pak, wanted us to accompany him in order to do a job on the Instructor of a competing school. I had a heck of a time to convince him that this sort of thing just was not a good idea in Canada. Later on, marketing skills took over what once was decided by force. When loyal (but perhaps misguided) students by the thousands continue to spread whatever their teacher tells them, some of these inaccuracies might even be thought of as facts. Added to this is the problem that very few bothered to properly document ancient Korean martial art history, the task of finding out the truth becomes nearly impossible. It is my guess that those who practiced Korean arts as a life saving skill really did not care about writing it down, as warriors often do not speak of their actions. After many years of trying my best to make sense of the origins of Korean arts, I simply resigned myself to the fact that training in the art was more important to me than worrying about its roots. I care, but it is simply a matter of where I want to spend my time. IMHO, this may have been an overriding factor why ancient warriors did not spend much time documenting their art. It was far easier to hand skills down from generation to generation, as it meant that "knowing" these skills required one to practice them. This guaranteed continued safety for the group. Today, folk practice martial arts for a variety of reasons, but most would purchase a gun to save their life. Due to the wide availability of lethal weapons, martial arts are no longer truly vital to our safety. We can now afford to take time to pursue our interest in the historical aspects of the origins of martial arts; however, given the lack of substantiated facts, we are severely hampered in our search for the truth. This brings me back to my initial point of using common sense right alongside of whatever else we may learn. In the meantime, I for one appreciate the fact that we have several folks on the DD who continue to dig in order to find true historical facts. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:28:02 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Chon Ji forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi everyone, The Chon Ji forms were created by Choi Hong Hi in conjunction with senior black belts. Most were created in the late 50's and early 60's (by all accounts). At any case, by the time the 1966 encyclopedia came out, the first 20 forms were in it along with the Japanese forms. Maj. Gen. Choi visited GM Rhee when he visited the US in the early 60's (can't remember the date). He convinced GM Rhee to use the name Taekwondo at this time and reportedly taught him the first 20 patterns in a single weekend. Four more forms were added in the late 1960's and early 1970's. The order of the black belt forms were changed at that time. In the early 1980's the 25th form was created -- Juche. (The political ramifications of pattern Juche are still bouncing around the ITF world.) Juche replaced Ko-dang as a pattern for persons testing for 3rd Dan. In the USTF we learn Juche for testing but also learn Ko-dang. I hope this helps, Robert Martin 4th Dan USTF A-4-336 ITF certificate number --__--__-- Message: 13 From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:48:05 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] dojang monopoly Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net << The question for the DD is have any of you run into this before? As commercial school owners or volunteer community school instructors? For the life of me, I cant see why they feel that they should have a monopoly. >> Mark, We've run into this type of thing, albeit in the opposite direction. We (commercial school) volunteered to contribute ready-to-go treats to the city's Halloween night program and were declined because we would be "competition" to the city's Parks & Rec program. However, they feel free to call upon us to provide (donate) entertainment (demonstrations) for their Farmer's Markets and Western Days celebrations. One would think that promoting the prosperity of every business in the city would be desirable as the fees/taxes from those businesses support the city budget. Alas, many times it is not logic that prevails, but whomever makes the most noise. Along those lines, perhaps several parents of children in your program would be willing to accompany you to the council meeting to make a statement. Good luck at the meeting! Sharon --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:26:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Territoriality in KMA To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I know of this happening to a TKD studio right across the street from Tiger Schulmans Karate in Connecticut. I was told that a senoir instructor went across the street and challenged the GrandMaster of the TKD school, who declined the challenge. What's strange is that when you walk into the TKD school, the training was not allowed to be viewed by the public. So when you walk in, you see a room behind glass but the glass is completely covered with some type of bamboo covering. Now to take this even further, my friend and I went into the school, spoke with one of the head instructors there and he explained why the training was blocked from the public, but I can't remember now, and he asked if I studied gave him my GM's name and he went on to say yes I know him and he's a great master, blah blah blah, and that his GM knew him....So I took their business card and went back to my GM and showed him their business card.....Well my GM was smiling to see me back in the dojang, and I told him that I was searching for another school since I had moved and came across this school (handed him the business card) and his smile on his face suddenly vanished and he said with a face serious enough to kill everyone living, Yes I know Him. I said no more about the guy. My shaolin Do master also had a few run ins with challenges. I think this stems from ancient times where in China if you developed or had a new martial art (kung fu) you'd have a challege...not sure if the same thing happens in Korea? Jye --- FirstPe315@aol.com wrote: > Bruce, I dont' know if it's only just a story. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Jason E. Thomas" To: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:05:23 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Participation/Waiver form... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm starting a new small TKD club that meets twice a week. I was wondering if anyone would have a sample participation/waiver form they'd be willing to share or point me to a resource to get one. Thanks in advance. Regards, Jason E. Thomas --__--__-- Message: 16 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:26:18 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Sword_Lineage_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: Has anyone found a decent resource for tracing the various personalities associated with the development of Kumdo in Korea? It would be nice to know how the various names I keep running across relate to each other. Anyone have suggestions? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest