Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 08:03:01 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #75 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. From Another Group....Influences on Korean arts. (Jye nigma) 2. Re: v-neck uniform elastic thingy ;) (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 3. Origin of Korean arts (Rudy Timmerman) 4. Re: dr. kimm's magazine covers (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 5. habgido & Pak (Burdick, Dakin R) 6. Re: Habgido/Hapkido (Chris LaCava) 7. Conecticut Territory Challanges (Chris LaCava) 8. Re: Conecticut Territory Challanges (Jye nigma) 9. Re: Origin of Korean arts (Jye nigma) 10. Re: Re: Habgido/Hapkido (Ray Terry) 11. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Round_and_round_we_go....._?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 12. From another group.....Tanjon Breathing Exercises (Jye nigma) 13. ITF news (Ray Terry) 14. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_History_Stuff_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:30:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] From Another Group....Influences on Korean arts. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hanmudo's 2 main martial arts constituents are Hapkido and KukSool. Kuk Sool has constituents of Praying Mantis.Kuk Sool stance is similar to Praying Mantis as well as hand blocks , strikes, and locks. Praying mantis stance are narrow,short,crisp and flows fluidly in and out fast in 9 directions.Kuk sool is similar. Hapkido stance is more similar to Japanese arts as it's roots is from Aikijujitsu which emphasise on more grounded and wide stance.Hand blocks and strikes are similar to Jujitsu. Hanmudo uses the best of both worlds ,that is Kuk Sool and Hapkido , blending with Dojunim's theory of Sine curve. Depending on which region of Korea , ie Northern or Southern, Korean Martial arts have different degrees of influence from China and Japan.The Southern has more Japanese influence,eg Taegu City where GM Yong Sul Choi resided.The Northern has more Chinese influence ,esp. North Korea near Manchuria where Kuk Sool is popular.During the 2nd World War,many Korean Martial Art Masters hid in Manchuria and China and fought the Japanese from there.Hence they had chances of learning Chinese Martial Arts and incorporated with Korean Arts.eg The art of Sun Do, Kuk Sool. What we normaly see of Korean Martial Arts eg Hapkido and Taekwondo , has more Japanese influence, as these are popularise after 2nd World War as many ethnic Koreans went back to Korea from Japan.American GI's returning from Korea after the Korean War, Vietnam War etc, help to popularise these arts in the US and the world. Today , we see more of Korean arts that have a stronger Chinese influence emerging in Korea eg. TeukGong Musul.These arts were not popular in Korea in early times , because of Japanese suppression.But they are emerging today as more Nationalistic Koreans practise them .Still very few of them have left the Korean Peninsula.Dojunim Dr.Kimm , Founder of Hanmudo, has done much to encourage masters of these arts to encourage them to open up to outside of Korea.Hanmudo is one vehicle that is helping to promote these arts. Dr.Kimm is now in the process of publishing the"bible" of Korean Martial Arts ,base on his 50 yrs. research materials.It consists of 2 thick vols.It describes the origin and development of Korean Arts ,both from Japanese and Chinese lineage, up to present day.The books are now in the printing factory in Tianjin ,China.With these books , more historically factual findings can be found to help understand and further develop the Korean Arts. DrChua __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:22:14 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: v-neck uniform elastic thingy ;) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "To those who are familiar with these things - how do you use the little button on the left hip with the elastic loop on the right hip?  Personally, I yank off the elastic and ignore the button, but its something I've wondered about..." lol...everyone has to ask at one point or another. you wrap it over the front of your uniform, across to the button and put the small loop of the elastic around the button. i guess it just holds the uniform in place under the belt. take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1-573-673-2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1-877-847-4072 --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:23:10 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Origin of Korean arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye writes: > the reason why I have a hard time > believing that Korea has its own ORIGINAL martial arts > system today because I look at Hapkido, ship pa gal, > TKD/TSD, Hwarangdo, KSW, just to name a few and they > are all from other martial arts. I check out the > history and whether they mention it or not when you > see the art in action you can see the influences of > kung fu, or some japanese art. Hello Jye: I am willing to bet that there are dozens, if not hundreds, of Korean martial art Masters who would say that it happened the other way around. In fact, GM Suh (KSW) reportedly spent much of his younger days sifting through this mess to organize original Korean martial arts. The very name of his association deliberately reflects that line of thought. With shifting borders and the like, who is to know what IS and what is NOT an original Korean art. I ran across a report that suggested that the Japanese Samurai imitated Korean swordsmen, and that the art of sword making was well known in Korea long before it was common in Japan. Who really knows if this is true or not? As I might have mentioned before, one can see a similar dilemma in looking over Naval history. If you look at English history books, you would think that they were the only seagoing nation that had any success. I'll bet that our Dutch friend Klaas can vouch for the fact that the Dutch history books tell a different story. A classic is the story that tells of one of Holland's greatest Admirals sailing right up the river Thames, breaking through the chain that was placed across the river to keep unauthorized guests out, and blasting Admiral Nelson's flagship out of the water. While this may or may not be a true story, we cannot ignore the fact that places like Niew Zeeland (New Zealand), Niew Amsterdam (New York), and a host of other places were named after those who had the power to get there and hold it long enough to name. The very fact they were able to do so meant that they were a force to be reckoned with, and yet almost no one in the English speaking countries has ever heard of famous Admirals like De Ruyter and Tromp. I'll bet further that the folks in Portugal and Spain have similar stories to tell. The bottom line is that historical "facts" are written to favor the countries they were written in, no matter if these so called facts relate to martial art history, naval history, or some other history that benefitted a particular need. While I am not from Missoury, I'll go along with the "show me". Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:35:59 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: dr. kimm's magazine covers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I would also be interested in any other magazine covers he has made. Thanks Chris Holmes" hi chris, GM Dr. He Young Kimm is on the cover of the TKDT sept 96 magazine i've got up for auction. course its in a lot with a bunch of other mags ;) take care, melinda eBay item 3500863193 (Ends Feb-18-03 19:28:27 PST ) - LOT 14 Martial Arts Magazines & Binders TKD Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1-573-673-2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1-877-847-4072 --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 08:24:35 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] habgido & Pak Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Klaas wrote: >Habgido is the 'new' name for hapkido ofcourse, if you follow the >latest romanization rules. Wouldn't that be hapgido? When did the "b" change position in the word? Rudy wrote: >Some old >timers might even remember the Count Dante incident. "Count Dante" was a hairdresser named John Keenan, a student of Robert Trias, in case anyone wants to dig further. >I had a first >hand experience with this when my Instructor, GM Pak, wanted us to >accompany him in order to do a job on the Instructor of a competing >school. I had a heck of a time to convince him that this sort of thing >just was not a good idea in Canada. You actually talked him out of it? I'm impressed! I didn't think Pak listened to many people about things like that. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Chris LaCava" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:02:31 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Habgido/Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Are there new rules in effect? ;) I have been told that, Hapkido is pronounced with a "p" sound because it is followed by a consonant. If it was followed by a vowel, it would be pronounced like "b" as in Habanero peppers. How do romanization rules change? Who makes the call? Any info would help. Thanks Chris "from CT" LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Chris LaCava" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:11:38 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Conecticut Territory Challanges Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye N. <> Hey Jye. What town in Connecticut did this occur in? Take care Chris "from CT" LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:30:40 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Conecticut Territory Challanges To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Chris, it happened in Bethel, CT. --- Chris LaCava wrote: > Hey Jye. > What town in Connecticut did this occur in? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:42:49 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Origin of Korean arts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net --- Rudy Timmerman wrote: I ran across a report that suggested that the Japanese Samurai imitated Korean swordsmen, and that the art of sword making was well known in Korea long before it was common in Japan. I also read that the Japanese purchased swords from Korea because they were made superior to the Japanese swords made in japan. The bottom line is that historical "facts" are written to favor the countries they were written in, no matter if these so called facts relate to martial art history, naval history, or some other history that benefitted a particular need. This is true, particularly in battle. I just feel that since much of the martial manuals were destroyed so were many of the actual Korean arts, and as a result,many Korean martial arts masters created their own art based off of other martial arts they may have studied....for instance the Lee brothers (Hwarang do) Why would someone who learned a "complete" martial art system, go onto study hapkido or any other art? Here's an email I received from an unknown person: "The story that I heard (no evidence mind you!) is that Kuksul was actually started by two Hapgido guys (In-Seok Pak and another gentleman) but that while they were in Germany, In-Hyeok Seo took control of the organization. Seo doesn't indulge in the stories, but certainly there was a feud between Pak & Seo. Pak might instead have split away from Seo! The Lee brothers seem to have been part of the same group, and then founded their own system (Bob Duggan being the source here). The whole mess is so confused that it is hard to tell what happened! Essentially, there seems to have been a lot of cross-training among these guys in the 1960s and the result was three systems that shared the same strengths (hapgido, kuksulweon, and hwarangdo). Your mileage will probably vary!!!!" Jye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Habgido/Hapkido To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:53:06 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > How do romanization rules change? Who makes the call? The government makes a/the call. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 08:50:56 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Round_and_round_we_go....._?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jye: ".....Not sure what that means as far as being stuck in my position? But the reason why I have a hard time believing that Korea has its own ORIGINAL martial arts system today because I look at Hapkido, ship pa gal, TKD/TSD, Hwarangdo, KSW, just to name a few and they are all from other martial arts. I check out the history and whether they mention it or not when you see the art in action you can see the influences of kung fu, or some japanese art. Now I'm not saying that Korea doesn't have a rich history, culture, ancient martial arts I'm just saying I would love to experience the Pure Korean martial art......" I wish I could give this subject the serious consideration it might deserve, but I have to tell you, Jye, that I have been around this tree just about one too many times. When we get right down to it, no culture has developed a Martial art solely on the merits of its own indigenous experience. Every culture has begged, borrowed or stolen their material from somewhere else and then tailored it to its individual circumstances. The Japanese, for instance, did not invent the sword. They did, however, raise it to the status of cultural icon and produce a science of sword use over centuries of warfare and class distinction. Some people really enjoy training in sword in the manner in which Japanese practice it. I enjoy training in sword in the way that Koreans practice it. The same goes for Hapkido arts in Korea, or boxing methods in China. Speaking for myself, what I have come to admire about Korean (and Okinawan arts if it comes to that) is the manner in which the Korean people have been able to meld influences from abroad through their own culture to produce arts that have a unique Korean interpretation to them. I am not sure why this concept is so hard for folks to relate to accept that most MA practitioners are saddled with mythes and misconceptions that make seeing the art for what is very hard. Rather than see Korean MA plainly for what they are, I see a lot of folks needing to have a thick coat of fancy anecdotal history to lend authenticity to what they do. Taken one step farther, there are also those KMA practitioners who posit the idea that if the Koreans can follow the amalgamation process I am talking about, then anybody can do it. To a degree they are right. Anybody can mix and match whatever they want through whatever cultural filter they want. The difference is that once culture "B" starts mixing and matching something from culture "A", it is no longer accurate to represent it as being the same thing as that of culture "A". For instance, the Okinawans took Chuan Fa from China and mixed it with To-De to produce Okinawa-Te. And even To-de is though to have been predicated on other earlier imported influences. It is now something different, and changed yet again when it went to Japan and became Karate. Taekwondo as an amalgam of BJJ, Aikido, Kendo and knife-fighting is no longer Taekwondo. Call it American Combatives or whatever, but it is no longer TKD. Let me know if you come up with a "pure" martial art--- from any culture. In the meantime, I will continue to study KMA with the hope of continuing to understand what it is that makes their approach what it is and why they have chosen to develop MA the way they have. Hope this helps. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 07:11:24 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] From another group.....Tanjon Breathing Exercises Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am curious to know how many set of Tanjon Breathing Exercise are there "officially" suppose to be. While certain Hapkido style practice 4 set, there is also certain style that have up to 6 set. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 07:14:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF news Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 07 February 2003 Further to our announcement of yesterday it should be noted that the following paragraph is stated in the police registration about Chang Ung group: "It is neither stated nor confirmed hereby that the persons named here are actually validly holding or have validly held these offices in law." 06 February 2003 Dear Members Do not take any notice of the registration in Austria by Chang Ung group which they have posted on their website. It does not mean that Chang Ung is recognised legally as President of the ITF. He has managed to register a group in the Federal police register but the document and entry has no legal standing. Anyone can register a group in this register. It is unfortunate that they accept another group with the same name as us but that is all. Yours in Taekwon-Do T.T. MacCallum on behalf of the ITF --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:30:57 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_History_Stuff_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rudy: Yes, we history scholars DO like to dig. I am currently reading Palais following a recommendation from Andrew Pratt. Excellent stuff but not particularly light reading, if you know what I mean. Palais' insight into the development of Korean martial science was that the main players in the development were the king (and his bureacracy), the Confucianists and the Yarbang nobles, the military, the Buddhists, and the common people (including slaves). Through the Three Kingdoms period, things were pretty much in balance, so to speak. However, the Koryo era saw a steady decline of the Kings influence with greater deference to Buddhist belief by him, and a steady increase of the Military at the expense of the Confucians. After the Mongols came in and trashed the country, subverting it to their own goals, they left a country that was turned 180 degrees. The Confucians and the King were on top and the military and the Buddhists were on the bottom. In time even the King had problems keeping the (neo)Confucians in check and this seems to be the situation that the Japanese found when they invaded Korea in 1592. Hell, this is pretty much the situation when the Japanese invaded in 1910! The reason that I take this little trip down History Lane is that one of things that Palais points up in the reorganization of the Korean military is the strong attraction that a "militia" had for the reorganizers following the 1592 invasion.Informal organizations such as the guerilla bands ("righteous armies") and the warrior-monks had demonstrated the power of using hurridly organized military forces rather than standing armies. This is important for us modern MA practitioners because such an approach sets to stage for the practice and transmission of KMA through the community (rather than the army) for generations to come. The approach is that the Korean "army", as such, is more of a "national guard" with people called up to train at regular intervals during the non-agricultural season. Not having a standing "army", as such was considerably less costly than having a standing army to be fed, clothed and sheltered 24-7. I am sure the government (king) was also tired of all the trouble generals with too much Peace on their hands can make. The way I see it, in this way, KMA becomes more of an informal system passed along from generation to generation through local schools, gyms ("kwans") or clubs rather than some highly structured patrilinear system of grandmasters and directors. One other thing and then I'll shut up. I have been keeping a special eye open for infromation about the development of sword work in Korea and am finding that mining, refining, iron-casting and sword-making were WAY down the line in priorities for the Korean people historically. The greatest priority was cloth making and argriculture. Mining, for instance, was heavily discouraged (except during the agricultural off-season, and then only within strict limits). What this says to me is that swords were only made in limited numbers in Korea, if at all, and more commonly imported from nations like Japan and China where they were being used and developed at a faster rate. OK, back to my books. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest