Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:15:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #76 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re:_Round_and_round_we_go....._ (Jye nigma) 2. Re: hapgido (K. Barends) 3. Re:Conecticut Territory Challanges (Chris LaCava) 4. (U) re: v-neck uniform elastic thingy (Boit Clinton L Capt 67IOW/MO) 5. Re: Re:Conecticut Territory Challanges (Jye nigma) 6. Old method of carrying Uniform (FirstPe315@aol.com) 7. Tanjun Breathing Exercises (FirstPe315@aol.com) 8. Dojang wars (Rudy Timmerman) 9. Tanjun--- (Eric Walker) 10. Tanjun breathing (Ray Terry) 11. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Extra!__Extra!_Read_all_about_it!!!_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 12. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Take_a_deep_breath......_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 13. Jye's questions (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 14. Re: Habgido/Hapkido (Chris LaCava) 15. Re: Round and round we go..... (Kent Frazier) 16. Various (Ray Terry) 17. intercultural influences on martial arts history (Burdick, Dakin R) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 07:55:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:_Round_and_round_we_go....._ To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think what's going on here is that I am not being clear about what I would like to see. I'm not looking for evidence that Korea has a fighting system that they created since the beginning of time, you guys are reading to much into it. I would like to know about the actual martial arts indigenous to Korea prior to Japanese occupation, all the way back to the days of the Hwarang and maybe further back if applicable. I don't want to know these arts to say Korea made this blah blah blah, I want to know because there is rich history in each martial arts system. I believe in mixing martial arts, but I like to have what we deem as traditional in tact for the sake of history, culture, customs, etc. It is already known that EVERY system (traditional) is not in it's original form (as when was created). The different schools of kung fu are a prime example. Each style became an improvement of a pupil. So there is no pure martial art period. But each land did have there own fighting TACTICS that were later systematically puzzled together into what we today call a system or art. So when this happened and there were improvements made until you had battlefield proved arts, then each land had their own special system(s) which they shared with others such as china hand to the okinawans. SOOOOOOOOOO....lol....I was wondering what did Korea have to share? Don't think of this as saying who invented the wheel, or who found fire first, think of this like the spice trade of foriegn lands; some lands may not have had the same spices as another land and so they traded. Think of my question in the same sense. Jye --- bsims@midwesthapkido.com wrote: Let me know if you come up with a "pure" martial > art--- from any culture. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:40:04 +0100 From: "K. Barends" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: hapgido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> Habgido is the 'new' name for hapkido ofcourse, if you follow the >> latest romanization rules. > > Wouldn't that be hapgido? When did the "b" change position in the > word? > > Are there new rules in effect? ;) I have been told that, Hapkido is > pronounced with a "p" sound because it is followed by a consonant. If > it > was followed by a vowel, it would be pronounced like "b" as in Habanero > peppers. > You're right, http://www.homestaykorea.com/2002_01/intro/romanization.htm When $!, $', $2, and $8 appear as the first letter of a word, they will be represented by g, d, b, and j instead of k, t, p, and ch. This means that 1$AV, 4k18, :N;j, and A&AV become Gwangju, Daegu, Busan, and Jeju. > How do romanization rules change? Who makes the call? > Any info would help. The government does. However some major newspapers in Korea boycot(ted) the new romanization rules. And ofcourse North Korea has a system of their own. -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Chris LaCava" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:49:41 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Conecticut Territory Challanges Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yup, right near the Danbury/Bethel border. Unfortunate. Was that recent or happened a while ago? Are you studying with Master C.H. Chen now? If you're still in CT and get a chance, stop by our dojang sometime to say hi or workout. Take care Chris "from CT" LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Boit Clinton L Capt 67IOW/MO To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:51:39 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] (U) re: v-neck uniform elastic thingy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Great new topic. Another answer for this could be this...When I started martial arts 21 years ago, students had to test for their first belt. During this 2-3 month time, the student never had a belt to hold the top down in place and it would flap all over the place. Now, I suspect that possibly some schools have maybe the same system, or even a 1-wk "no-belt" time, which the student would perform a few simple kicks, blocks, etc and get awarded their first belt...the white belt... So, having this little elastic thingy could come in handy if a school had this "no-belt" period. Clint Boit --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:42:32 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:Conecticut Territory Challanges To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net that's right! this happened years ago. I don't live in CT anymore. Who is Master C.H. Chen? Is there still a martial arts school across from tiger schulmans? --- Chris LaCava wrote: > Yup, right near the Danbury/Bethel border. > Unfortunate. Was that recent or > happened a while ago? > > Are you studying with Master C.H. Chen now? If > you're still in CT and get a > chance, stop by our dojang sometime to say hi or > workout. > > Take care > Chris "from CT" > > > > LaCava's Martial Arts > Westport, CT. > http://lmaa.bravepages.com > Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months > FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:46:45 -0500 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Old method of carrying Uniform Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I still do that quite frequently. Didn't know I was a throwback. Jeff In a message dated 2/14/2003 6:01:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Part of the after class ritual was to kneel on the floor, properly roll up > your dobok, and then tie your belt around the uniform, > using the belt as > a carry handle. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:52:28 -0500 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Tanjun Breathing Exercises Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye- I do 10. But we only do 4-5 in class. The rest are reserved for other times, seminars, more advanced students etc. I'm sure there are even more than this and that there is no "traditional number", it has a lot to do with the training and background of your instructor. Jeff In a message dated 2/14/2003 11:03:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > I am curious to know how many set of Tanjon Breathing > Exercise are > there "officially" suppose to be. While certain > Hapkido style > practice 4 set, there is also certain style that have > up to 6 set. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:25:24 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Dojang wars Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dakin writes: > You actually talked him out of it? I'm impressed! I didn't think Pak > listened to many people about things like that. I must admit, it took quite a bit of talking to get him to agree, but in the end he accepted our suggestion to "let it be". The deciding factor was an already scheduled tournament in town where we could have a "legal" way to kick some butt. Jye talks about the coalition that existed between GMs Suh, Lee, Pak, and a number of others, and the consequent breaking up of that group. I think Dakin can fill us in on some of the thoughts concerning this, and my personal knowledge of this issue certainly proves that there indeed was a strong connection between some of these Masters when I joined Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do back in the sixties. My original certificates bear this out, and the sudden change of names on my certification further confirms that there was a definite split in the early to mid 70's. In fact, I strongly suspect that there was some very bad blood between GMs Pak and Suh, and this eventually caused GM Pak to formulate Kong Shin Bup. Even though I was very close to GM Pak, and I was present at a number of heated phone conversations between GMs Pak and Suh, my lack of understanding Korean language prevented me from fully grasping all the details. It was only the "after the calls" (one sided) discussions with an obviously very angry GM Pak that allowed me to grasp just a little of what was going on. One thing GM Pak made no bones about was the fact that he (Pak) fully believed that the Kuk Sool organization was originally intended to be a "shared" venture between he and several other Masters, and that the problems stemmed from a deliberate deception by GM Suh to eliminate these other Masters. Given my personal experiences with GM Suh, I would not discount that possibility. While it serves no purpose to get into the details of this, I merely want to agree with you on the fact that there was at least a perceived alliance between GMs Pak and Suh. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:34:26 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Tanjun--- Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Jye I am only a student (2n Gup), but I am pretty sure that there are more than six Tanjun exercises. The set that we teach begining students consists of four exercises. We call this "tanjun hoepoep" (sp?). I have not been taught more than eight or so different breathing exercises, however the only organized set that I know at this point in my training is the beginner's set. Within this set there is one tension exercise and three more relaxed exercises. Sometimes if Master Toth is not at class, I'll throw in cleansing breath (he doesn't like this one much) to bring the total to five. Eric Walker > I am curious to know how many set of Tanjon Breathing > Exercise are > there "officially" suppose to be. While certain > Hapkido style > practice 4 set, there is also certain style that have > up to 6 set. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:45:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Tanjun breathing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net How many 'official' tangun breathing exercises are there? As many as your instructor teaches... :) i.e. nothing magic or official or unofficial about it. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:59:39 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Extra!__Extra!_Read_all_about_it!!!_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: I can tell already that its gonna be one of those years!! Not only won't I be able to make it to Jackson, but I just got a notice from Sara Seo (secretary, Hidohae in Calif.) that her father is coming to Tampa, Florida to conduct a weekend seminar the weekend of the 29th of March! $175US will get you both days. I had originally understood that GM Seo was not coming to the States this year, but then I remember reading that GM Ji wasn't gonna do anymore seminar after he retired. Oh well. Things change. Anyhow, from the circular I received the seminar will be held courtesy of the (here Bruce swallows VERY hard) ICHF in Tampa, Florida. With that last sentence I think I have invented a new level of approach/avoidance in the Human psyche'. Heres' one caveat to everyone who might even be remotely interested. I suggest we get some sort of confirmation from Steve Seo or Sara on-line here before people start applying. The reason I say this is because there was recently an activity here in Chicago that advertised GM Seo being in attendance and that did not materialize. I don't think it was an intended misrepresentation as much as probably a misunderstanding or miscommunication. Anyhow, I think it would pay to know if this presentation is a go, or not. Word from people in the know would be sincerely appreciated, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:10:16 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Take_a_deep_breath......_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jye: ".....I am curious to know how many set of Tanjon Breathing Exercise are there "officially" suppose to be....." Its going to vary from art to art. In Yon Mu Kwan we have five different kinds of diaphramatic breathing. Actually there is nothing magic about how any one art or another does this kind of work-out, and you can do it using just about any kind of motion. Dynamic Breathing ("Dan-jon breathing") has been part and parcel of Chi-kung and various other arts which purport to develop and direct internal energy. Even Hae Dong Kumdo has a style of Dynamic Breathing and HDGD essentially a sword art! Go figure. I don't put a lot of faith in such training, but I do what is part of my regular workout because thats what I was taught. It hasn't hurt me and probably has done some good somewhere even if I am not consciously aware of it as I write this. My biggest challenge is to make sure that my students don't push down so hard that they have an "accident", or press the blood into their head and get a migraine. Moderation in all things. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:50:36 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jye's questions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, What makes you think that all "official" Dan Jun breathing exercises are even a part of hapkido? Or that hapkido has the "official" dan jun breathing exercises? I have been gone some time, but just wondering did you have your question on Tang Soo Do from some time back answered? If not, perhaps I can give you some perspective. Just email me. Danny Dunn <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Chris LaCava" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:11:26 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Habgido/Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray T. <> Thanks for getting back to me. The Korean Government, since it's their language or some other country's government that uses the Romanized method? Sorry to sound so ignorant. Thanks Chris "from CT" LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:17:05 -0800 (PST) From: Kent Frazier To: Digest Dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Round and round we go..... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cheers, Bruce, very well put. I had gotten the impression before that you felt very differently on this subject. Good to know we are on the same side, I wouldnät want to be put against you, heh. Hey by the way, whenI get the digest your subject lines are always something like =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Round_and_round_we_go....._?= instead of a simple line. It is only your posts, and only since you changed your email address. Do you know why it does that? Am I the only one thats receiving the messages like that? Viel glück zu alles, Kent --__--__-- Message: 16 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:33:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Various Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Hey by the way, whenI get the digest your subject > lines are always something like > =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Round_and_round_we_go....._?= > instead of a simple line. It is only your posts, and > only since you changed your email address. Do you > know why it does that? Am I the only one thats > receiving the messages like that? I suspect that perhaps Bruce is sending out his mail using mime encoding. The Mailman listserver software de-mimes email, but it looks like it maybe isn't de-mimeimg subject lines. And no, I don't think you're the only one seeing it, probably every one sees it. > I had originally understood that GM Seo was not coming > to the States this year, but then I remember reading > that GM Ji wasn't > gonna do anymore seminar after he retired. Oh well. > Things change. Just think of Gm Ji as the Michael Jordan of the KMAs... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 17 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:56:35 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] intercultural influences on martial arts history Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye writes: > the reason why I have a hard time > believing that Korea has its own ORIGINAL martial arts > system today because I look at Hapkido, ship pa gal, > TKD/TSD, Hwarangdo, KSW, just to name a few and they > are all from other martial arts. I check out the > history and whether they mention it or not when you > see the art in action you can see the influences of > kung fu, or some japanese art. Rudy replies: >I am willing to bet that there are dozens, if not hundreds, of Korean >martial art Masters who would say that it happened the other way >around. Yes, but that doesn't mean it was so. >GM Suh (KSW) reportedly spent much of his younger >days sifting through this mess to organize original Korean martial >arts. The very name of his association deliberately reflects that line >of thought. I thought the name Kuksul (national arts) reflects an anti-communist stance. Guoshu (national arts) was the name that Chinese nationalists under Chiang Kai-Shek used for the martial arts. It was always my impression that Kuksul was intended to reflect that same stance. >I ran across a report that >suggested that the Japanese Samurai imitated Korean swordsmen, I certainly would have to question that. What was the source? Everything I've seen tells the opposite story (including the history of modern gumdo). >the art of sword making was well known in Korea long before it was >common in Japan. Who really knows if this is true or not? Again, what is the source? Rudy, you said you admired the folks who do history on the martial arts, but then here you say, "how do we know it is true?" I think we should rely on a preponderance of the evidence, in most cases, even though the oppressive nature of various regimes (ie. Japanese occupation of Korea) should be taken into account. There are some very good histories of Korea out there in the scholarly domain. If you are referring to martial artists talking about their history, then yes, I would keep a HUGE grain of salt handy, because the record shows a great deal of variance in the tales they tell. But I've seen a lot of great scholarly histories that help one understand Korean history. By the way, from what I have seen, many of the great swordsmiths of medieval Japan were Koreans. They had Japanese names of course, but frankly the Koreans got stuck with a lot of hard work and little credit in Japanese history. On the other hand, I think the traffic in sword technology was from the Japanese isles towards Korea, even if the transfer was by Koreans returning home. >The bottom line is that historical "facts" are written to favor the >countries they were written in, no matter if these so called facts >relate to martial art history, naval history, or some other history >that benefitted a particular need. While I am not from Missoury, I'll >go along with the "show me". Again Rudy, let me reiterate my faith that there are a great number of dedicated professional historians, and while no-one can completely eliminate bias in one's writing, the best of us sure do their damnedest! Jye next wrote: >I also read that the Japanese purchased swords from >Korea because they were made superior to the Japanese >swords made in japan. Again, where did you read this? The source is important. If one looks at the ancient blades in the Freer Gallery in Washington, the Korean blades look like Chinese blades for the most part. Bruce writes: >Every culture has begged, >borrowed or stolen their material from somewhere else and then tailored it >to its individual circumstances. >....Anybody >can mix and match whatever they want through whatever cultural filter they >want. The difference is that once culture "B" starts mixing and matching >something from culture "A", it is no longer accurate to represent it as >being the same thing as that of culture "A". For instance, the Okinawans >took Chuan Fa from China and mixed it with To-De to produce Okinawa-Te. And >even To-de is though to have been predicated on other earlier imported >influences. It is now something different, and changed yet again when it >went to Japan and became Karate. And yet we can argue the opposite. Quanfa (fist method) is the Mandarin name for Chinese boxing. In Okinawa it was called kempo (fist method) and in Korea it was called kweonbeop (fist method) and in Indonesia it was called kuntao (fist way in the Hokkien dialect). So they DID call it the same thing (but in a new language) and they DID change what was included in the art. Kind of like tangsu (Chinese hands) and karate (Chinese hands), right? Aside from the modern desire to trademark every new art, there really is not a need to change a name because a technique changes. EVERY instructor teaches their art differently (and some more differently than others). So when Bruce writes: >Taekwondo as an amalgam of BJJ, Aikido, >Kendo and knife-fighting is no longer Taekwondo. I would say, sure it is, as long as that's what the practitioners call it. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest