Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 03:01:50 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #77 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Jye's questions (Jye nigma) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Thanks_for_reminding_me....?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. What did Korea Contribute? (Dave Wilson) 4. re: 0ld method of carrying uniform (bredfield) 5. Re:_Extra!__Extra!_Read_all_about_it!!!_? (bredfield) 6. (Request input from DD members) Monopoly (Braeswood Martial Arts) 7. Korean MA origins (Patrick L) 8. Chicago Seminar (Rudy Timmerman) 9. RE: Re: Thanks for reminding me.... (Wallace, John) 10. History, fact or fiction (Rudy Timmerman) 11. Re: Conecticut Territory Challanges (Chris LaCava) 12. Hanmudo's "sine curve"? (Christopher Spiller) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:06:21 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Jye's questions To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Danny, the tanjun exercises question was from another group, not my question. Yes I had the TSD question answered. Jye --- "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" wrote: > Jye, > > What makes you think that all "official" Dan Jun > breathing exercises are even a > part of hapkido? Or that hapkido has the "official" > dan jun breathing exercises? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:19:40 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Thanks_for_reminding_me....?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Kent: ".....Hey by the way, whenI get the digest your subject lines are always something like =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Round_and_round_we_go....._?= instead of a simple line. It is only your posts, and only since you changed your email address. Do you know why it does that? Am I the only one thats receiving the messages like that?...." Thanks for reminding me to ask.... I recently went into the SBC DSL system and while it IS a lot faster I have been ironing bugs out for a little while now. If anyone knows how I can get rid of all the garbage that turns up on the message line it would really be a help. Its not there when I type in my entry so I am guessing that it is a function, somehow, of the system itself. As you say, Kent, it seems as though my posts are the only ones that do it. Does anyone else use DSL? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Dave Wilson" To: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:58:58 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] What did Korea Contribute? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Jye nigma SOOOOOOOOOO....lol....I was wondering what did Korea have to share? I've got a guess... I think that, due to the national state of Korea, the martial artists in Korea about the time that Hapkido originated there were hard training with a purpose. Much like in the Marine Corps we trained with intensity and purpose. This allowed them to produce some outstanding Hapkido Masters who in turn have influenced many of us. That's a pretty big contribution in my mind. Dave --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:15:45 -0500 From: bredfield To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net" Subject: [The_Dojang] re: 0ld method of carrying uniform Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Old" method of carrying Uniform?? guess I'm old, still do that, we used to do it at the Judo club I was with in the seventies, we didn't have bags, just rolled it up used the belt and over the shoulder and out the door, still saves room in the gear bag I have now though : ), but for tournies I like to starch,iron,hang for the crisp lines : ) Bernard --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:22:33 -0500 From: bredfield To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net" Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:_Extra!__Extra!_Read_all_about_it!!!_? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Bruce , I also recieved that invitation from the ICHF but it arrived like 2 weeks ago, is it the same one? seminar in Tampa, big picture of GM Seo on the flyer? just wondering --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:15:16 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] (Request input from DD members) Monopoly Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am a new school owner and get stalked (drive by's weekly, dirty looks, etc.) by neighborhood school owners (my former instructor and his wife). I simply smile and wave and this seems to get them furious. Not sure if this helps you at all, but as you have history with your attackers as I have history with mine, I thought I would share. As my Master has told me, "if they are spending all this time and effort on you, they are obviously not taking care of their students, you concentrate on taking care of what important, your school and your students." In my opinion your attackers and mine share a common personality problem, they do not set a very good example of Black Belt Excellence. This will be their down fall if they continue to attack you on a public level. Good luck to you and please let us know the outcome of your next confrontation. Kat Kelly --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:45:48 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean MA origins Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All, Jye writes: >the reason why I have a hard time >believing that Korea has its own ORIGINAL martial arts >system today because I look at Hapkido, ship pa gal, >TKD/TSD, Hwarangdo, KSW, just to name a few and they >are all from other martial arts. I check out the >history and whether they mention it or not when you >see the art in action you can see the influences of >kung fu, or some japanese art. Another Poster followed up with: >In fact, GM Suh (KSW) reportedly spent much of his younger days sifting through this mess to organize original Korean martial arts. The very name of his association deliberately reflects that line of thought. With shifting borders and the like, who is to know what IS and what is NOT an original Korean art.< FWIW, My background is in HKD. My interest in validating a Martial Art by finding some linkage to a historical purity via some point of origin is NONE. I offer the following to provide a general understanding of Korean MA. Most answers to current Korean MA are rooted in Korean Politics post WWII until 1976. Follow the Money and the Power. After WWII, it is my understanding that the scattered, incomplete, disorganized Martial arts of Korea were further battered by the strength of the organized and Gov't sanctioned TKD. When the political opportunity presented itself, an organization of NON-TKD Martial Artists sought and was awarded sanction by the Gov't. Since TKD was exclusive, large and powerful, the newly sanctioned group is inclusive, admitting all types of MA. A pent up demand for Gov't sanctioning existed for these NON-TKD MAs, so growth was explosive. The first boom in Hapkido growth is born out of the desire to find a unifying/controlling aspect to the disparate arts flying under this new banner. Soon the political/cultural climate changes, and all things Japanese are to be subjugated to things all-Korean. Political-correctness Korean Style hits the MA. TKD becomes Korean because they say so - being organized and well structured - the change is accepted with little dissention. Within the Non-TKD organization, some Judo becomes Yudo, some Kendo becomes Kumdo, etc. Due to the lack of unity, organization and structure, a battle begins for leadership within the loose confederation of Hapkido. Finger pointing begins about who is and is-not Korean inspired. Hapkido claims "Koreaness" (it had added Taekyon). The words KookSoolWan appear and they "Koreanize" their art. HwaRangDo asserts is "Koreanness" by touting their Korean Monk heritage. "Hapkido" suffers a set back in growth by these splits. During this cultural head stand - the political climate changes, and a third Gov't sanctioned organization comes into being. Many of those who consider themselves HKD split off into this new group. Having political favor, and desiring to grow, this group is successful in attracting new Martial Artists. This second boom in HKD, is done under a stronger mantle of a better defined "Hapkido". A few years later the political climate again changes. The leadership of the latest Gov't sanctioned HKD organization fall into severe disfavor with the new Gov't and many HKD decide it is a good time to leave Korea. This actually results in the third boom in HKD, but it occurs outside Korea. Finger pointing continues to this day. Mainly focused on the shared area of weakness for most of the Korean MA - their less than one-hundred percent Koreanness, and the story they felt forced to concoct to address this "problem". IMHO the lesson to learn is; don't tie your faith in a MA to some insignificant details. A good Martial Art is a good Martial Art, in spite of Gov't sanction, organizational affiliation, name, age, founder, quality of student, or country of origin. Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 19:24:39 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Chicago Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > The reason I say this is because there > was recently an activity here in Chicago that advertised GM Seo being > in > attendance and that did not materialize. I don't think it was an > intended > misrepresentation as much as probably a misunderstanding or > miscommunication. Hello Bruce: I was at that seminar, and I can give you an idea why GM Seo did not attend. Although Masters Gavin and Stigall who helped organize the event did their best to make this happen, the format of the seminar (15 minutes of teaching per Instructor????) was not suitable for bringing GM Seo there. My guess is that the expense of traveling to Chicago from Korea to do a 15 minute segment just was not possible. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Thanks for reminding me.... Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:39:43 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Here's how it looks to me RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Thanks for reminding me.... Nothing strange in other words. I use a corporate connection at work (I think its at least T1) and some sort of funky DSL/T1 interface my condo Homeowners Assoc cobbled together at home. No complaints, no weird characters. I don't get the digestified version though - I suspect as Ray supposes that it’s a (majordomo?) thing. -JW -----Original Message----- From: bsims@midwesthapkido.com [mailto:bsims@midwesthapkido.com] Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 2:20 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Thanks for reminding me.... If anyone knows how I can get rid of all the garbage that turns up on the message line it would really be a help. Its not there when I type in my entry so I am guessing that it is a function, somehow, of the system itself. As you say, Kent, it seems as though my posts are the only ones that do it. Does anyone else use DSL? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.454 / Virus Database: 253 - Release Date: 2/10/2003 --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:33:22 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] History, fact or fiction Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dakin responds: >> I am willing to bet that there are dozens, if not hundreds, of Korean >> martial art Masters who would say that it happened the other way >> around. > > Yes, but that doesn't mean it was so. Precisely my point. Since none of us were there, who do we believe. > I thought the name Kuksul (national arts) reflects an anti-communist > stance. Guoshu (national arts) was the name that Chinese nationalists > under Chiang Kai-Shek used for the martial arts. It was always my > impression > that Kuksul was intended to reflect that same stance. From what GM Suh related to me, his motive was to organize all traditional Korean martial arts in order to promote the fact Korea had indeed a rich and varied history of indigenous martial arts. At no time did he ever mention that his work had anything to do with communism. > >> I ran across a report that suggested that the Japanese Samurai >> imitated Korean swordsmen, > > I certainly would have to question that. What was the source? > Everything I've seen tells the opposite story (including the history > of modern gumdo). > >> the art of sword making was well known in Korea long before it was >> common in Japan. Who really knows if this is true or not? > > Again, what is the source? Rudy, you said you admired the folks who do > history on the martial arts, but then here you say, "how do we know it > is true?" Sorry Dakin, the sources are like the X files "out there somewhere". At the time I read them, it was just not important enough for me to remember. I love reading history, but I must confess that I am not interested in keeping records. I know, blasphemy:) > There are some very good histories of Korea out there in the scholarly > domain. If you > are referring to martial artists talking about their history, then > yes, I would keep a > HUGE grain of salt handy, because the record shows a great deal of > variance > in the tales they tell. But I've seen a lot of great scholarly > histories > that help one understand Korean history. Dakin, my point is that even scholarly works on history might need the salt shaker. While I most certainly agree that a lot of work goes into creating a scholarly document, the amount of work often is based on the reliance of folk tales and other scholarly works that may or may not be correct. Although I am not even close to being a scholar like yourself, there is ample evidence that the world is full of BS from all sources. From fraudulent paintings, certified by the some of the most respected experts, to revisited history of some of the greatest archeological digs, we find again and again that some scholar wipes out what other scholars professed to be the truth for years. For some, the "real" truth came to late, and they died believing fallacies. Not long ago, a Canadian scholar found himself in court because he was adamant that the holocaust never happened, and that is despite the fact that we have tons of evidence that supports it indeed did happen. His argument to the courts was that the whole thing was a conspiracy by various governments. I did not buy his argument, but many did. On the other hand, whose history books are we going to believe about the assassination of President Kennedy, and whose history books are we going to believe about the role of the US in places like Vietnam, South-America, Africa and on and on. Hell, some Japanese history is being re-written as we speak, and that is only being done because of political pressure from Korea. I suppose some will say that the history Japanese school children took as gospel for the past few decades was NOT written by scholars. Oh well. IMHO, most historical "facts" lack physical evidence, despite having been written by scholars, an I will continue to support the"show me" state trend of thought. In the meantime, I sincerely hope scholars will continue to work as hard as they do, because it is the best we have. In closing, I hear you about the size of the salt regarding accounts by martial artists. I have seen my share of martial artists who were well read but rarely seen on the mat. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Chris LaCava" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:45:01 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Conecticut Territory Challanges Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye N. <> Master Chen is a very respected Kung Fu/Qi Gong instuctor in Brookfield, CT. He also does Feng Shui consulting. I have heard he has some heavy qualifications in that area also. Jye N. <> Yes there is, but it may or may not be the same school. Take care Chris "from CT" LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:54:19 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hanmudo's "sine curve"? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye fowarded the following post from another group: > Hanmudo uses the best of both worlds ,that is Kuk > Sool > and Hapkido , > blending with Dojunim's theory of Sine curve. I've heard of "sine wave" with the ITF. What is "sine curve"? I believe there's at least one Hanmudo practitioner on the list. Can you offer any insight? > Dr.Kimm is now in the process of publishing > the"bible" > of Korean Martial > Arts ,base on his 50 yrs. research materials.It > consists of 2 thick vols.It > describes the origin and development of Korean Arts > ,both from Japanese and > Chinese lineage, up to present day.The books are now > in the printing factory > in Tianjin ,China. Excellent news! Any word on when they'll be available for purchase in the U.S.? Taekwon, Chris __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest