Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:25:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #84 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Hapkido is not an add on (ABurrese@aol.com) 2. Stretching it (Rudy Timmerman) 3. Re: Stretching it (chuck@rimshapkido.org) 4. GM Yu and Chicago Seminar (J T) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Kicking_Stuff?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. Kicking stuff (Ray Terry) 7. Re: Stepping Out (Bobby Whittemore) 8. Supporting one another (Rudy Timmerman) 9. Match formats (Emactkd@aol.com) 10. TG Dewey's Question About Pelligrini (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 00:34:26 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido is not an add on Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere reminded me that I should save posts. I wrote this about Hapkido, which is similar to the post Jere was talking about. I will be putting this on my web page in the next day or two, but thought I'd share it here first. Hapkido is Not An Add On Often I hear the comment, "Oh, we do Hapkido too," from someone who trains in TKD or some other art. The problem is not with people who have trained in more than one art, but in that many places teach a few joint locks and hoshinsul techniques from a Hapkido curriculum, and then claim they "do" or "teach" Hapkido too. It seems that these people do not realize the fact that Hapkido is a complete martial art, and not something you just "add" onto another style. The schools I trained at in Korea were Hapkido schools, and Hapkido schools only. Hapkido was not a few joint locks added on the side, but the complete martial art that it is, including training in breathing, falling, blocking, striking, kicking, joint locks, throws, forms, weapons, and more. We did Hapkido every class, every day. (And for me, it was two classes a day Monday through Friday and then one on Saturday) To advance through the ranks of Hapkido, you must train in all these areas. I do not have anything against a TKD instructor who wants to teach some joint locks or self-defense techniques from Hapkido to help his students be better martial artists and more rounded. But it should be called what it is. "We practice some techniques from Hapkido," not "We do Hapkido too," and advertising as a Hapkido school. There really is a big difference in adding a few things on, and training at a Hapkido school where that is all they do. Now there are some people that have earned the rank in both arts and can teach both. The programs will be different, and not really interchangeable, since a TKD class and HKD class are different, since they are different arts with different emphasizes. And it is interesting that so many TKD schools add HKD, where I have not seen a HKD school that added TKD. I'm not knocking TKD, but it is sort of interesting, don't you think? And it is TKD schools that seem to "add HKD on" the most. If you are a TKD instructor, and you teach some Hapkido techniques that you have learned in the self-defense or hoshinsul portion of your class, great. Just be sure to let your students know that these are just a portion of what you would learn in a Hapkido program. If you want to learn Hapkido, I recommend a Hapkido program, not just a little added on to something else. The Hapkido program should have its own curriculum and teach all of the things listed above. Note, a school can have a TKD program and a separate Hapkido program, and if you go to both you will find they are quite different, or at least they should be. Or, as I did in Korea, and as you can do elsewhere too, you can go to a school that is Hapkido only. The main thing is to realize that Hapkido is a complete art and not just the addition of a couple joint locks and throws to something else. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 01:44:36 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Stretching it Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > You can stay pretty active in the martial arts for quite a while, but > as > you get older it becomes more and more critical that you use your head Hi Bruce. Is this where we get the T-Shirt with the old age and treachery stuff:) Good advice on the using common sense. I found that after 40, my body took more time to heal. I stopped competing when the bruises from last tournament had not healed by the next one. Bruises on top of bruises DO look ugly. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 3 From: chuck@rimshapkido.org To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:17:58 -0500 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Stretching it Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On 18 Feb 2003 at 1:44, Rudy Timmerman wrote: > Rudy writes: > I found that after 40, my body > took more time to heal. I stopped competing when the bruises from last > tournament had not healed by the next one. Bruises on top of bruises > DO look ugly. Wait until you reach 55. Chuck (a 25 year old trapped in an old man's body) --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 07:22:25 -0800 (PST) From: J T To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] GM Yu and Chicago Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, What I was told by Master Stigall, was because they couldn't work out the GM Seo visitation so they brought GM Yu. I am not sure what is GM Yu's rank, I do believe it is 7th or 8th dan. He is a great technician and very humble gentleman to talk with. Rudy, Please keep me inform on your trip to Chicago this summer. I would love to attend your seminar. If you are available to do a seminar on that Saturday as well, perhaps we can make some arrangements to have you come in and do another one. Please contact me offline with the information on having you come in to do a seminar. Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:07:25 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Kicking_Stuff?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: ".....FWIW, I had to check Kwang Sik Myung's 1968 book on Hapkido. Someone I think you are familar with... Granted none of the kicks he shows in that early book are jumping or flying, but more than two-thirds of them are to the head! Actually that surprised me a bit......" For me, this is probably one of the biggest conundrums for Hapkido. Having trained with GM Myung for quite some years, he has always stressed the use of the kick at chest level or below, and has given a number of reasons for taking this approach. I have attended seminars where folks advocate the use of high, spinning and jump kicks, but then back away when the subject of self-defense or combat situations come up. In my own classes, even the use of the roundhouse kick is conditional on first setting the kick up with some sort of pre-emptive move rather than attempting a skip-in RH to the head. At Level 2, I teach a combination which includes a shin kick, RH Kick then a spinning heel kick but the practicality of the spinning heel kick at the end is that it would be a "clean-up technique" after the first two kicks had done all the "heavy lifting". When I went to the Ft Collins Seminar, with GM Ji, there were a few very high kicks practiced including a back kick so high that it had to be supported with the hands on the ground. But, again, that was training and I never heard a mention of its practicality in an actual application. Moving back a generation, there are counter-kick techniques in Daito-ryu AJJ and some kicks are done, I suppose, so that students learn how to deliver kicks to their partners for effective training. I haven't seen any actual kicking applications there. In Taek Kyon there are all sorts of clever kicks--- and yes, thats not to say Taek Kyon couldn't be used for combat--- but I wonder how many are actually used in competition, or combat if it comes to that. Regardless of what gets presented in the media (and that includes my books as well), I consistently hear the message in Hapkido that low, fast kicks are preferable to high, or aerial, kicks, so I will stay with my original thought. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:35:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicking stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > When I went to the Ft Collins Seminar, with GM Ji, there were a few very > high kicks practiced including a back kick so high that it had to be > supported with the hands on the ground. But, again, that was training and I > never heard a mention of its practicality in an actual application. Based on a quick count in my head (can I count outside my head?), 11 of Gm Ji's "Basic 25 Kicks" are to the chest or higher. The spinning, jumping, flying, skipping, double, etc. kicks are not part of the Basic 25. Then come later in the curriculum. A hands supported back kick (fwiw, kick #17) helps to reduce back problems for the kicker (later in life). Support hands are also used on our high roundhouse (#7) and high side kick (#16). Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:26:11 -0800 (PST) From: Bobby Whittemore To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Stepping Out Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Adding to Bruce's contribution on Nakayama Sensei's thoughts... 1) Bruce Lee in "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" mentions on page 47, "Balance is the all-important factor in a fighter's attitude or stance. Without balance at all times, he can never be effective." 2) Elmar Schmeisser in "Advanced Karate-Do" mentions on page 24, how all stances are discrete points on a continuum of movement: "In application, e.g., in free sparring or self-defense, all stances are on a continuum and smoothly blend one into the other." Elmar continues: "Consider the following sequence made by pulling back the front leg: Front stance, rooted stance, back stance,short hourglass stance, cat stance, crane stance, twist stance, (reverse) front stance." He concludes: "One must be able to "root" at any time and in any position..." With this in mind, I would add... The key to stance is balance, at all times. It is only with balance that we can execute offensive and defensive techniques instantly in combat. In order to root effectively and efficiently in the course of movement, balance must be maintained throughout. I believe that the study of these principles will cause us to embrace the "c" step method of moving. Yours in training, Bobby Bruce wrote:...... Dear Neal: ".....Basically, the conversation centered around the comparative advantages and disadvantages of a straight step or "c" step in moving from one technique to the other. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this matter....." 2.) Nakayama in his book (DYNAMIC KARATE) again, does not speak to any special step but the half-moon step is diagramed in many of his movements. What he emphasizes is the smooth transition from one stance to another and the common point among all of these is the continual bringing of the feet together with the knees bent. If a transition is made from one forward stance to another the natural extension of this would be to scribe first one arc then another to produce --- you guessed it-- an in-and-out half-circle movement. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:30:14 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Supporting one another Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > Lets face it, there are a number > of names in the KMA community who have built a reputation for marginal > business practices and questionable representation of the facts. Its > gonna > be a long slow road back to getting the KMA practitioners to trust in > the > community. Is it possible? I don't know but Master West seems to be > moving > in the right direction. Hello Bruce: As in anything attempted, it may take some trial and errors to get it right. I think JR has passed those days, and he is now reaping the fruit of a long haul of very hard work he and his wife put in over the years. People are willing (even glad to) travel a long way to work out with others who love the art. All this is because the reputation of the event is unmarked by the very things you speak of -- lack of politics. I will travel over 2000 clicks one way just to get there, and I will even bring a few students with me. They come, because I told them it was a great event, and they have read (in the DD) the many stories of others who enjoyed it. I again urge all my NKMAA members to attend as well. With the distance being as far as it is, I would love to come to both events. That is just out of my reach for several reasons, not the least of which is that students traveling with me need to take a week vacation. Wives will only put up with that so often:) Hence, I am working on a solution that will see a similar event in the Michigan - Ohio area. The timing will have to be so that it won't interfere with anything JR is doing, because I want to create additional training opportunities (not replace the good ones that are already set up). Perhaps, over time, we will also earn the respect and support of serious martial artists. This will take time; however, some will need to take a gamble that such a seminar might be OK, in order to get it going to begin with. Without such support, it will never get off the ground. Contact me if you are interested, so I can see if it is feasible to begin with. At the risk of becoming morbid. We are at a crossroads in martial arts where too often we see that another icon has gone to the great Dojang above. Time for good training with these folks is waning, and I would hate for you folks miss the boat because of some problem with who is there or who promoted it. Go for the experience. before you miss the chance all together. While I am nowhere near the quality of the icons I spoke of, even those who wish to train with me will have to do it now. As I get older, these week long road trips of some 4000 miles driving in Winter are wearing me down some. It took me two weeks to recuperate from my last trip to Korea. Yet, despite the aches, pains, and expenses, I continue to go because I love the art. I can't believe that some of the younger folks on this forum are wiling to give up a chance to practice with the likes of GM Seo. Here is a man who is about my age, and I can guarantee that these 12 (or more) hour plane rides are wearing on him as well. GO, before he decides he has had enough. I strongly urge you to forget your differences, and NO -- I am not on some recruiting spiel for JP, I just tell it like it is. Unfortunately, time is not on our side:( An added bit of advise. Some people will say "shoot, it is the same material he did last year -- bummer". To those folks I say you haven't looked deep enough into the wealth of tiny details that make techniques work well. I have picked up tiny bits of info that I had missed on every occasion I attended seminars with good presenters, and I have trained for more than 50 years. Beginners look at a technique without seeing WHAT makes it work. I call that "look like" techniques. Once you have the look like technique down pat, you go back and open your eyes on what makes the thing work. Look at the footwork (GM Seo is amazing), look at the angles of the joint locks, look WHEN the power is applied (so you don't give away your intentions). After you have gleaned some of these little gems, you go back the next year and pick up other details you have undoubtedly missed. Unfortunately you will miss it all if your pride gets in the way of seeking out good training. Training is not for your comfort, training is for learning. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Emactkd@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:56:00 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Match formats Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm sure I'm not the only one with this answer. Match formats were WTF Olympic rules. Full contact "point" sparring. WIn by knockout or more points. Continuous fighting in each round, no stopping to declare points. But there are rules, yes. This is not war. Rick Foley --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:14:16 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] TG Dewey's Question About Pelligrini Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net TG writes in regard to John Pelligrini, <<>> I have no firm opinion on the guy, but I've observed a lot of the criticism that has been leveled at him both here and other places. Here's my best shot as to why people who dislike John P feel the way they do. 1. In the mid to late 80's he was a high-ranking TKD guy. In the mid to late 90's, he "resurfaced" as a high-ranking Hapkido guy. Many question the way he was promoted, and seem to think that his "fast track" promotions were more a result of hopping from one organization to another rather than his knowledge of Hapkido. In essence, he presents himself as a Hapkido authority with credentials to boot, but many question the experience, ability, and knowledge behind those credentials. 2. Evidently, Mr. Pelligrini likes to have his picture taken with noted martial arts celebrities, competitors, and personalities. A good portion of these photos end up on his website, or published in martial arts magazines (most notably TKDT's). Most of these photos are not accompanied by detailed captions, so the viewer is left to make up their own mind as to his relationship with these people. The implication is that he is either a close personal friend, or respected colleague of a great many recognizable martial artists, when in reality many of these pictures just represent quick photo-ops taken at "Dragon Pajama Party 2001", or some such martial arts event/trade show. I don't think anyone here would begrudge their fellow martial artist for a little healthy promotion, but most feel that he takes it across the line in terms of not being forthcoming about the exact relationship between himself and the people in his public photo album. 3. Here's the biggie! A lot of the Hapkido folks here and elsewhere don't like the fact that he uses the term "Combat Hapkido" to describe a curriculum that he teaches. If he went around and called his stuff "Pelligrini Hoshinsul" or some such, then I don't think people would be alarmed. But, his use of the term "Hapkido" in reference to his own martial art system makes some believe that he is misinforming the public since his "Combat Hapkido" is not really "Hapkido" in the purest sense of the word, but rather his own personal interpretation of the combat applications of the original art (plus whatever else he's thrown in). Also, there are more than a few that believe Pelligrini is not that great of a Hapkido man (not sure what the metric is to establish that fact), and his demonstrations of "Combat Hapkido" reflect badly on "true Hapkido". Now, at this point I'll throw in my two cents, and say that the only way to tell if he knows his stuff is to get on the mat and see (assuming he's willing), rather than take the route that some have and run him down the road because his hip wasn't turned correctly on the cover of the June issue of 'Hapkido Today'. But, short of that, the party line is that he's a competent Hapkido man in terms of what a lower ranking black belt should be, but his technique does not reflect the same refinement that can be found in other similarly ranked Hapkido practitioners. Kind of goes back to number one...not enough time in the art to justify his rank. 4. I've not seen this written or heard it said, but here's a theory of mine. I think there's a healthy portion of resentment out there over the fact that Pelligrini has occupied more than his fair share of the spotlight. Add to this the fact that many of Hapkido's upper ranks and accomplished practitioners have not enjoyed the same level of media exposure (by choice or otherwise), and you can see why many would begrudge the fact that Pelligrini has in some ways become Hapkido's poster boy as of late. Now granted, success always breeds envy. But, that success is usually respected when it is earned. The larger issue is whether or not his exposure has been "earned", and therefore the resentment. 5. Lastly, many think that John P. is doing for Hapkido in the 21st century what a few organizations (who shall remain nameless) did for TKD in the 20th century. To put it bluntly, some believe he's churning out back belts under the banner of his "Hapkido" organization, and is not too keen on quality control. Thus, the overall quality and public perception of "Hapkido" is being diminished, if not in real terms, at least by virtue that the two distinct practices share a common name. That's what I've gathered. He's probably the most controversial figure in the Korean Martial Arts (although, a certain rotund gentleman in Florida is gaining ground), and opinions vary from "he hung the moon" to "he's a snake oil salesman". The only reason this stuff sticks in my mind is because I loves me some good old fashioned mud-slinging as much as the next guy (I just happen to admit it), and the only thing more entertaining than extolling the virtues of a prominent martial arts personality is pointing out their obvious shortcomings. Hope this helps. Craig "Fair and Balanced Reporting is My Middle Name" Stovall --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest