Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 07:31:05 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #89 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. more (michael tomlinson) 2. drum roll for Craig (michael tomlinson) 3. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Pelligrini_Redux_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 4. "c" step (Neal Konecky) 5. support (Tim Gregorini) 6. differences between iaido and haidong gumdo (A. Boyd) 7. Re: closing (Melody Cookson) 8. Re: Talk of JP (Chosondo@aol.com) 9. Re: When to start competing. (Troy Trudeau) 10. Re: JP 1st Dan (Troy Trudeau) 11. Re: When to enter competitions (JohnLewis) 12. Re: The ICHF and Combat Hapkido (Stovall, Craig) 13. History and the martial arts (Burdick, Dakin R) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 02:37:00 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] more Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mike Rowe writes: <> There in lies the problem I have with it. 1992 was only a couple of years after I saw pelligrini get his 1st dan black belt in Hapkido,, lets see 1st dan, and then 2 to 3 years later he is an 8th dan and creator of a NEW kind of Hapkido, problem is that at that time he hadn't practiced Hapkido long enough to even know what Hapkido really is, but he did own some TKD schools in south florida, come on man,, how can anyone truly buy that with a straight face.. If you look at this without any personal agenda it is very clear... but to each his own,, as long as everyone is happy and paying the bills then I guess it really doesn't matter about credentials or all that other pesky stuff like honor and paying your dues,, let the money roll in and pass the camera, besides everyone knows that the only reason some of us old farts complain about it is that we are jealous of all his success, we are just old bitter hapkido guys crying in our bulgogi and saying man if only I would of jumped orgs 4 times, lied, and marketed myself better I could be just as successful? My two cents anyway, take it or leave it folks, no big deal, but you just can't sell me this cow because I've seen it milked and it is dry. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 03:02:32 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] drum roll for Craig Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To the very best of my recollection, and again this is not set in stone, but I KNOW it is close, I even went back to try to find old certificates, etc.. trying to find the exact date of the Orange City promotion to 1st Dan by Mike Wollmershauser to John Pelligrini at Chester Holubecki's Isshin Ryu School, it is either spring of 1990 or the late summer or fall of 1989,, I am leaning towards the spring of 1990, but I just can't totally remember, but by God I was there and saw it with my own two eyes. and I can remember how hot it was working out that week and wondering who all these TKD guys from south florida were. dudes we didn't even consider the group from south florida as Hapkidoists, they were from JP's tkd school. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 22:34:09 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Pelligrini_Redux_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mike: "....In 1992 the ICHF was swamped with letters and phone callls threatening Pellegrini and even those of us who taught for him. Said Combat Hapkido would never last and that it was garbage. Well we have celebrated our 10th Anniversary, have an extensive video library, have published our first book with others on the way. We have been accepted as a legitimate Kwan by the Korea Kido Association and the World Kido Federation. The ICHF enjoys the support of GM In Sun Seo and has hundreds of chartered schools across the United States as well as around the world (England, Italy, India, Poland, and many more)....." I am with you on this one, Mike. I have begun to shudder each time this guys' name get mentioned because it seems to re-process all the same old he- said-she-said kind of stuff. Much like with GM Ji, I was criticized once for taking Pelligrini to task without first attending one of his seminars. I went to a seminar. I still hold the same view as before but now I have some experience to back it up. Whatever. One thing I WOULD mention, though, and this is not necessarily related to Pelligrini. I notice in my research that the Korean people seem to have raised devisiveness to an art form. Reading about the various factions during any given king-ship in the Yi dynasty it seems that people would split into factions and go after each other on little or no basis and it was considered a Confucian point-of-honor to continue a rift between entities from father to son to grandson. I mention this because I wonder sometimes if we in the KMA community have been unconsciously indoctrinated by 1st and second generation teachers to look for differences rather than similarities among our arts. Were that true maybe we are being set-up to propagate divisions for little or no reason as is reflected in much of Korean history. But you don't have to believe anything "I" am saying. Just take a moment and ask folks who attend one of Master Wests' or Master Timmermans' events and the same thing keeps coming back over and over--- no competition, no contention, no politics, no territoriality. Seems like somewhere along the line we should be getting a clue, yes? Why isn't it sticking? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:07:57 -0800 (PST) From: Neal Konecky To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] "c" step Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you to all that responded. You have confirmed what I have suspected. The next questions are: Why, if the "c" step is more effective in defense, balance etc., has TKD embraced the straight step? What was the perceived benefit? What is the origin of the change? Thank you Neal Konecky ===== "A general Dissolution of Principles and Manners will more surely overthrow the Liberties of America than the whole force of the Common Enemy" Samuel Adams __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 01:17:33 -0500 From: Tim Gregorini To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] support Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Troy Trudeau writes: >GM Timmerman is right, if you havent trained with some of the "Older Guys" yet, You need to, >Sometimes we need to put away our differences and just go and train,learn, and take in as much as we can. >anytime you get an opportunity to train with GM's such as In Sun Seo, Rudy Timmerman, JR West, Ji Han Jae, we all need to go. GM Timmerman writes: >At the risk of becoming morbid. We are at a crossroads in martial arts >where too often we see that another icon has gone to the great Dojang >above. Time for good training with these folks is waning In the opportune words of "Bob and Tom" - "Hello Mr. Obvious" - "Long time listener, First time caller" I find that I could not let the posts of support go without comment from one of the small guys (me). I am new to the martial arts (three years) - am 44 years old and while I often lament the passing of the first 40 years without benefit of the arts - I am wishful of the next 40. I have always learned however; not to anticipate but participate. I have been elevated to a point in my life I could not have otherwise achieved without the dedicated support and instruction I have received. While I have only been to a couple of seminars, I have at my disposal, in this remote community - GM Timmerman. I say this not to invoke jealousy but to report a sad truth. My heart truly goes out to some parents and students of our club because they know not what they have. I see it in my own club and am ashamed that they do not realize the opportunity of knowledge and freely given wisdom that they have in their backyard. At the risk of appearing long winded (long past) I must extend my heartfelt thanks to my Instructors and those instructors that endeavor to bring the martial arts to all willing to learn. Your willingness to teach and impart wisdom befitting your lives is only comparable to that sudden insight and understanding I get when a part of my art or life now works right. With all my heart - thank you for supporting each other and thank-you for offering yourselves in seminars for our benefit. If I could speak to the eternal time keeper - I would ask for another 50 years of teaching (if that is a good thing) - then maybe we could all meet Yours in the martial arts and future participant in seminars; Tim --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 06:34:40 -0500 (EST) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] differences between iaido and haidong gumdo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A brief description of the curriculum of Haidong Gumdo is that it consists of many forms and drills, ki gong, unarmed combat basics, non-competitive contact sparring, non-contact sparring, and hard and soft target cutting. The forms and drills are geared toward mass engagements. Students begin training with a wooden sword, move to an unsharpened sword, then train with real swords after black belt. Forms are to flow smoothly and dynamically. Contact sparring employs full body targetting and is performed with bamboo swords and full body armour. Non-contact sparring uses wooden swords and is performed in real time rather than move-by-move. Cutting practice begins with bamboo (here in Korea anyway) and moves on to a wide variety of soft targets. For more information you can check sources such the official Haidong Gumdo website ( www.hdgd.org ), my website ( www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ) or the martial arts resource FAQ. -Anthony Boyd ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Melody Cookson" To: Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:50:15 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: closing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye asked: Thanks for your concern, but we are in a special situation in that while we owned the business, we were students, not the primary instructors - in fact, I was an orange belt when I stepped in as "the boss." So, once we put our vision/mission in place we were dependent on instructors to carry it out. Our business succumbed to instructor turnover after a long haul with one, inflated commercial rental rates in our area, low foot traffic and many vacancies in our older strip center, and the landlord wanted an unreasonable rent increase along with a 3-year commitment. In this economy, it just doesn't add up. We have made a good enough impression on our students that most are continuing on in the martial arts. As for my family, we can once again be students - as you all know, when you run the business there are 100 things that take precedence over your own training. While we will miss "our baby," this will be good for our family life, and we wanted to leave the area and ownership with a good reputation. I challenge all studios who have to make this decision to do as we did and give students 30 days notice, refund all unserved tuition, and not close up in the middle of the night. Meanwhile, we will still be a part of the MA community and continue to train, coach and officiate! Thanks, Melody --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Chosondo@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:50:43 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Talk of JP Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been watching all of this talk about John Pellegrini. Look guy's, the bottom line is he is where is is because we (the collective we) put him there. Obviously, he is filling a market void and there are plenty of folks out there who is filling it. This reminds of the story of four blind men touching an elephant, well, you know the rest... Each of them had a "truth", but not the whole truth. So, let's move on to an issue plagueing Korean Martial Arts, like why getting American senior Korean Martial Artists together is like herding cats. Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster International Chosondo Federation Choson Kwon Bup - Hapkido - Taekwondo 7252 Valley Avenue Phila., PA 19128 215-483-5057 --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 06:13:23 -0800 (PST) From: Troy Trudeau To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: When to start competing. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Kim, Alot of students get asked that, cometition is good, as long as its fun, I don't think that after 8 months of training that its too soon, its what you feel comfortable with yourself, if you feel up to it, then by all means give it a try, I used to compete all the time, it will help you with your techniques and skill most certainly, good luck, Sincerely, Troy Trudeau www.wtswa.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 06:18:38 -0800 (PST) From: Troy Trudeau To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: JP 1st Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wow, thats approximately a dan for every 1.5 yrs, hmmm, . Troy Trudeau www.wtswa.com --__--__-- Message: 11 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: JohnLewis Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 04:56:03 -0600 Organization: kiyap.com News Gateway Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: When to enter competitions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, If you don't want to go don't do it! You have ever the last word. 8 months is very premature. Normally you must be at least Blue belt. John L. TKD Kitten wrote: > *Hi Everyone > > A bit of background before the big question: I am a 33 year old > female, and > I began studying TKD about 8 months ago. I'm just starting to feel a > bit > more confident with what I would consider to be the basics of this > martial > art. I have already been asked to enter into a local competition, > which > seems premature to me. Is this a "normal" occurence to be asked to > compete > so early in my training? What have others experienced? > Thanks > > Kim > Vancouver, B.C., Canada > > [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which > had a name of winmail.dat] > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > http://tinyurl.com/64sl * -- JohnLewis ------------------------------------------------------------------------ www.kiyap.com Online Community for Martial Artists View this thread: http://www.kiyap.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2519 --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:14:36 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The ICHF and Combat Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Regarding Michael Rowe's comments in support of the ICHF and JP. Hey, if it makes you happy, it makes me happy. However, I'd like to ask a couple of questions for clarification. In regards to his 8th Dan in Hapkido that is recognized by the Ki-Do Hae (as advertised on his website), is he 8th dan within the "Combat Hapkido" Kwan as recognized by the Ki-Do Hae as a legitimate Kwan, or is he 8th Dan under a system of Hapkido that is apart from "Combat Hapkido"? In other words, is he 8th Dan in CH, and then like 6th Dan (I'm just guessing here) in some other Hapkido lineage like Sin Moo, or something? If so, what is the particular Hapkido lineage, and what's his exact rank? Also, I looked at his website, and he now has a couple of members on his executive committee that head up particular programs. I see that he has a director of a "Pressure Point" program, as well as a director of a "Stick and Knife" program. My question is this. I didn't see a picture of the gentleman who used to head up his "Groundfighting Program". Was his name Rodriguez, or something to that effect? I can't exactly recall. Anyway, I was under the impression that he was at one time a pretty prominent figure within the ICHF. Has he parted ways with JP? If so, what were the circumstances? I'm just curious since I didn't see him on the website, and I thought he used to be listed there on the executive committee. Also, he lists a teaching/instructor's credential in JKD, or something to that effect. I was just wondering about the exact nature of this credential. Who granted it to him, and what particular flavor of JKD are we talking about (Concepts Method, Original, Oakland, JKD Stategies, etc.)? BTW, from your "roll call at the State Penitentiary" comment, I'm assuming you're a correctional officer? Have you had to use your training on the job? Any good stories that you might share with the group? Craig "I Need to Get Some Work Done" Stovall --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:16:35 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] History and the martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rudy wrote: >Dakin, my point is that even scholarly works on history might need >the salt shaker. On this, we are certainly agreed! >IMHO, most historical "facts" lack physical evidence, despite >having been written by scholars, On this I will disagree. If the person is a professional historian, Ph.D. in hand, their work will typically be excellent IF THEY CARE ABOUT THE TOPIC. I've seen some truly awful boxing histories by professional historians (for example, confusing John L. Sullivan with Yankee Sullivan!). But even in those awful histories, they list their sources and one can still find gems of research. The idea that all histories are the same, and that one story is as good as another, shows an understanding of cultural relativism, but you need to go further. It is important to get beyond that and start questioning the sources. "Why is this guy writing this book?" "What is his goal?" "Why does he trust the evidence that he selected?" Those are some of the most important ways to judge a work. Your "show me" attitude is very healthy, but it will take you a long time to be shown all the research you would like to be shown. A good intermediary step is to check out book reviews in the professional journals and see what they say. Often those reviews are written by people who spend most of their time reading on that particular topic, and as such they are great at filtering B.S. (They also love to point to out that B.S. when they spot it!). By the way, I'm not terribly fond of the term "scholar." It emphasizes a kind of elitism and seems to say that not everybody can do this sort of thing. I praise professional historians only because they have been specifically trained to understand the use of evidence. That doesn't mean they are the only people who can do that! I've seen a lot of great researchers who don't have that Ph.D. All the Ph.D. does is certify the training -- it doesn't ensure you are any good at it (kind of like the black belt, right?). Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! 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