Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:06:05 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #93 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Defining_the_next_step....?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 2. Re: when to enter competitions (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 3. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Rank_stuff_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 4. Leaving the nest (Rudy Timmerman) 5. Re: a bit more on JP (Victor Cushing) 6. rank (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 7. Re: Pedro (Michael Rowe) 8. Re: The Company you keep (Michael Rowe) 9. JP and Gathering of Korean Masters (J T) 10. testing in Canada (rich hodder) 11. jp stuff (Allison Hapkido Academy) 12. (no subject) (Rudy Timmerman) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:36:02 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Defining_the_next_step....?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Chris: ".....One possible reason for such an attitude may be because of a preoccupation with liberty. Which is understandable given Korea’s recent history. Take Korean nationals, transplant them to the States, add some American practitioners who are from a culture of “rugged individualism” and you can begin to see a pattern......" Taken within the context of my original post, then, it would seem that what you are suggesting is that schizms and spin-offs are the natural result of what we are teaching in our KMA classes, yes? I suppose that if I were to draw a parallel with modern education, one would expect that the student would graduate sooner or later and some students would go on to start educational institutes of their own. I can see the wisdom and the realism in this line of thinking. Where this thinking begins to breakdown for me is in knowing what it is that each subsequent generation owes the previous generation in terms of authenticity and tradition. Because a person CAN split off and originate their own material does it follow that a person MUST do this? We had been talking about teaching Hapkido and when does a KMA no longer deserve to be called a KMA. If the way that we teach our students makes developing a style of school of ones' own inevitable, then we must resolve just what it is that person owes to the previous generation- - if anything. The comment I made about 1st and 2nd generation Korean teachers comes from various experiences in which teachers have split from originating organizations and/or set-up strictures so that their students may not interact with KMA "cousins". Is it possible to continue to teach the material of ones' teacher and still honor whatever one owes to themselves in starting their own entity? Is it possible to get many people who place autonomy and individual freedon above affiliation to work together, or would we have the proverbial "room full of tigers" all waiting for the opportunity to use and abuse each other? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:58:13 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: when to enter competitions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Is this a "normal" occurence to be asked to compete so early in my training?  What have others experienced? Thanks Kim Vancouver, B.C., Canada" hi kim :) i have a few students who are in the same boat. both began training last july/august and i have asked them to compete in a tournament in march. theyve both promoted once and are yellow belts. theyre next promotion isnt scheduled until the end of march. one student is in her late twenties, the other: early thirties. both are capable and fairly committed students. and both are scared to death :). we spar in class and they both enjoy it. theyre concerned that its too early for them because theyve only been coming to class for eight months and are only yellow belts (their words, not mine). as an instructor, i wouldnt recommend that a student undertake a challenge of any type (new technique, form, weapon, tournament) unless i thought they could handle it emotionally and physically. when you spar in tournaments, youre normally grouped by belt color, gender, size (height/weight), and age. youre not going to get your butt kicked by some head-hunting 18 year old who's in better shape and has been training since age four. a lot of tournaments ask on the entry form how many times youve competed, too. i'd recommend talking to other students in your school who've been around awhile and sparred in tournaments. see how they liked the experience. if still in doubt, discuss those doubts with your instructor and make sure s/he takes you seriously. good luck and have fun, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1-573-673-2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1-877-847-4072 --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:54:39 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Rank_stuff_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Keith: ".....My understanding is that the heads of the original five kwans had all primarily trained in Japanese Karate and most were 2nd or 3rd Dans (e.g Gen Choi or Hwang Kee). I assume then that the extent of their training was initially only "technically" up to 2nd or 3rd Dan Karate standards. Here are my questions then.....how did they continue to become more proficient in their arts and rise to higher levels? Did they keep in contact with their Japanese instructors? Did they just refine what they knew and contribute (along with their students) to the evolution of a "new" art?...." You raised a whole bunch of great questions and, honestly, way too many to be resolved in 25 words or less. There are a number of books to read on the subjects you raised and you can spend the rest of your life doing that. If it is of any help there are a couple of things to watch for as you sort out this rank stuff for yourself. a.) Even the Japanese were not quite sure what criteria to assign to rank advancement. Kano Sensei and a number of Kendo individuals were quite sure that performance (success on the mat) should be the major determining factor. However this did not square with Funakoshis' idea of Karate as a character-development activity. Afterall, who was to say what "good" character was when assigning rank. This lack of specificity carried over into the Korean interpretation of Karate and its amalgamation with Taek Kyon. b.) The KMA have no tradition of belt rank. This was a relatively new innovation incorporated from Japanese applications after WW II. Up until the Japanese Occupation, the closest one came to ranking was performance on Service exams or in competitions among enforcement authorities such as the police or armies. c.) Continued study in the overt sense in Oriental MA has usually been through teacher referrals. In this way, a student, say, who worked with me for years would later be referred appropriately when I could no longer teach them stuff. The referral would be to someone I knew who could continue my student along the path I had identified as in their best interest. There was also the institution of the "knight-errant" in the Orient in which students would strike out on their own to challenge and grow as a result of those challenges. d.) TKD becoming "kicking-centric" stems from the same origins as introducing kicks to HKD. Taek Kyon is considered a quintessential KMA and the amalgamation of an art with Taek Kyon has often been one way of Koreans taking "ownership" of an art as their own. e.) Are their people who have legitimately added or discovered better ways to do things? Yes, but the process is a slow, tedious and frustrating one, and so is not something a great many are willing to work within, especially Americans who need their reinforcement (recognition, status, etc.) "yesterday". To work within a system and contribute to that system while still honoring its integrity and authenticity is a paramont balancing act. I hope some of this is a start in the right direction for you. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 00:07:47 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Leaving the nest Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > we teach people to stand on their own, stand-up > for themselves, and be their own persons in the MA, then we complain > when > that autonomy results in them splitting off and starting their own > autonomous group. Hi Bruce. You have hit on one of the most difficult things a long time instructor must face. I kind of liken it to the family unit. We bring up our kids to the best of our ability, and we worry when it is time for them to leave the nest. Yet, we know that we must. It took me a long time before I felt comfortable allowing some of my students to run classes by themselves, but I knew that my school would never survive unless I did. I still see mistakes being made, and it is hard to stand back and let it happen; however, I must wear two hats. One that tells me that the students should get the best of my knowledge, and the other that tells me that my Instructors MUST try to learn how to figure out their errors. I tend to stick with the latter (unless it gets too bad), because I know that NOT doing that will mean that my school won' t likely survive after I am no longer there. That is not an option for me, because I know the school does too many good things for the people of our community. So I sit back (most of the time), and I allow my Instructors to swallow a lot of water before I prevent them from drowning. All in the hope that the lessons learned will be worth their while. When I was younger, I never even gave that a second thought, now it is something I am seldom not thinking about. I still rather do it myself, but I know I should not. Thank the Lord for seminars. There I can get my fill of what I have to pass up on in my dojang. Having started this trend of weaning my Instructors about ten years ago, I have seen that many of them are responding and maturing into good and decent people. I guess you might say I am a proud grandpa. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 07:38:55 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Victor Cushing Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: a bit more on JP Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In reply to Dana's post (below): If John Pellegrini would tell the truth about his past, your question would be much easier to answer. How long did he train, with whom for each rank he achieved, and who promoted him to each dan rank? Five Hapkido organizations in 3-4 years, and progress from white belt to 5th Dan in the same time period. I have spent plenty of time on the mat with John Pellegrini and he is in no way a well trained Hapkidoin. Listen, we get to question credentials of the President of the United States every four years. If John Pellegrini is going to build his business by acting like a public figure for Hapkido, then he is open to questions about his credentials. Let's try out a hypothesis: In 1989 without training for any significant amount of time in Hapkido he is presented with a 1st Dan, and then in the space of 3 years in 1992 (according to Mike Rowe who talks about the 10th anniversary of the ICHF) he has formed an organization, is at 5th Dan and off to the races using advertising and the internet to sell video tapes, seminars, and school charters primarily to TKD schools. If I am wrong I will apologize in public. A very key question...On what dates did he receive any of his gup rank promotions? Some more questions? Where are the hundreds of schools he claims, how about a list? How many of those school's owners were ranked in Hapkido by any authentic organization before their association with John Pellegrini? Are they mostly TKD schools whose owners have all their Hapkido rank from John Pellegrini? I would strongly support Bruce Sims statement that John Pellegrini offers a shortcut to apparent respectability. As a comparison, I started training in Hapkido in 1983, spent 5-8 hours a week for 6 years on the mat to get a 1st Dan (call it 6 hours a week times 50 weeks a year times 6 years = 1800 mat hours = 1st Dan). So that's 1800 hours over six years and I get my 1st Dan in 1989. Cettifcate signed by GM HYUN - K. S. and GM SEO - In Sun. What did John Pellegrini do to earn his 1st Dan besides be sponsored by a high ranking Korean TKD Master whose association with GM Wollmerschauser yielded a certificate for John Pellegrini. You bet I get annoyed. It is emotionally like seeing someone who was never in combat claim to be a Medal of Honor winner. My training history is at: http://modernhapkido.org/training.htm Where the heck is John Pellegrini's? Vic Cushing At 06:01 AM 2/21/2003, you wrote: >I have a timely question. Do you think it somewhat immature, >inappropriate, and disrespectful to question your own senior and >instructor's integrity >regarding their granting dan rank to others? --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:24:41 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Can't say I agree with the statement below Dana. After all, a student is not forced to accept the rank. I have turned down dan rank on several occasions. Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:09:02 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Pedro Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> I have never said you can't play well with others, just don't play well with Pellegrini. :) On the realm of Pedro he is now head of his own organizations: check out : http://www.cqdt.com http://www.hukjusool.com Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:16:02 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The Company you keep Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net << Be careful of the company that you keep, because you will certainly be judged by it. >> I have problems with this. I might be judged by the company I keep and I might be judged wrongly but then again people shouldn't judge my company anyway. Jesus must have been a lousy person with the company he kept (thieves, harlots, and tax collectors) heck he must have been a mobster ;) Michael "soon to be a daddy" Rowe --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 06:28:01 -0800 (PST) From: J T To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] JP and Gathering of Korean Masters Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Obviously, he is filling a market void and there are plenty of folks out there who is filling it." Very nice point. He was very smart in filling that void which was his ultimate goal (giving a self defense curriculm to TKD schools that didn't really have it). I tip my hat to him for that. However, does that give him the right to jump ranks for teaching basic HKD skills? "So, let's move on to an issue plagueing Korean Martial Arts, like why getting American senior Korean Martial Artists together is like herding cats." Funny, but true. Too all the GM's on this list, would you be willing to travel to Chicago if we had a massive gathering up here? Instead of talking about why it's not happening, let's make it happen. I am willing to invest some time, money and effort into making a gathering of GM's in this area if the GM's are willing to show support in showing up. I can be reached at unitedmartialarts@msn.com. Let me know if anyone is interested. Let's make it happen in 2004! Jeremy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "rich hodder" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:05:56 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] testing in Canada Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net GM Timmerman (Rudy), I like the way you think about testing, here was I thinking that I was too hard on people during their tests and requiring too much of them. Actually I think that they need to do more but that is another subject for a different time. I think it is also possible that you all break so much wood, because it is excellent fire starter. I know that being from Steamboat Springs , CO it has helped me out many a time (tounge firmly in cheek). good luck in your testing and seminar, Rich HodderGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Allison Hapkido Academy" To: Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:18:14 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] jp stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JP NEVER WAS ACTUALLY A MEMBER OF DAVE WEATHERLY’S ORGANIZATION. HE WANTED IN BUT WEATHERLY TOLD ONLY IF HE LEARNED THE SUN MOO KWAN REQUIREMENTS. WEATHERLY NEVER ISSUED HIM A DAN CERTIFICATE. HE DID GIVE HIM A MEMBERSHIP CERTIFICATE WITH AN EXPIRATION DATE ON IT. BUT WEATHERLY TOLD ME HE WOULD NOT GIVE HIM RANK WITHOUT TESTING HIM IN PERSON. JAMES ALLISON --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:38:31 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dana writes: > I have a timely question. Do you think it somewhat immature, > inappropriate, > and disrespectful to question your own senior and instructor’s > integrity > regarding their granting dan rank to others? It seems childish to me > that > students of the same instructor would assume one has a greater right > to dan > rank than the other Hi Dana: You have a very good point there, and it is no doubt one that not everyone will see in the same light. That is why Instructors must stick to their values and goals despite the begrudging or other type of objections the rest of his students (or other martial artists) have. Often, the Master in charge has information that others do not know about, and they might or might not take personal abilities etc. into consideration. IMHO, if we were to measure everyone training in the arts today by one single standard, it would mean that a large percentage could never reach black belt (and many who wear one today should give it up). I was one of those who held the bar extremely high at one time, and I produced one black belt in almost twenty years of teaching. The rest just did not measure up to my standards. I was wrong, dead wrong! As I grew older (and perhaps a bit wiser), I realized that black belts should be earned by each individual on their own merit. Yet, we have this nagging problem of one student being more adept to the arts than another (in some areas). I also found that many of the students who had lots of skill, lacked in the humility or other mental aspect of the art. So the question became, which is more important? After many years of mulling this over, I came to the conclusion that ALL of it is important, and few of us are able to reach that level. Hence, I relaxed my stringent requirements a bit in order to allow more individuals to blossom to the best of his or her potential. Low and behold, some whom I thought were less than suitable to earn the black belt became some of the best I had produced, while some of the most skilled ones did not quite measure up in the end. I tried to find a solution, and one of the things I did as head of our system was to create different levels within the art. Rather than passing everyone for the same level, I created a "professional" and a "recreational" level. This allowed me a bit more freedom in granting rank, and at the same time it did not discourage anyone from trying as hard as they could -- the goal was not unattainable. While this system is not perfect, it has served me better than scaring off folks who truly deserved to advance but were not quite at superstar level. Most folks who begrudge rank in others fail to grasp the fact that sooner or later age will catch up with them. At that point, if the rank of black belt were not flexible at all, they would not be able to pass their own test requirements. I found this out the hard way, and I even quit for a whole year before one of my students talked me into coming back as a "Coach". Now, I see my role as one who should try and motivate EVERYONE to be the best they can be. Another concern was that I could not keep my school feasible with the bar raised too high. There are just not enough superstars around, and it became a bit boring to pay the rent out of MY pocket year after year. The end result of my experiment was to see a healthy school with a depth of quality in my students that are as good as any. Is everyone happy, NO. But then I think the man who can keep everyone happy has not been born yet. Heck, most of us have a problem keeping just one woman happy:) Rudy --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest