Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 03:01:50 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #94 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Timely_Indeed!!_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 2. RE: Re: The Company you keep (Wallace, John) 3. Re: Pioneers of Tae Kwon Do (Ray Terry) 4. ending JP (Ray Terry) 5. Re: Peeing in your own well (Ray Terry) 6. US Open (Ray Terry) 7. rank-rank (michael tomlinson) 8. Re: a bit more on JP (Victor Cushing) (Dana Vaillancourt) 9. Re: testing in Canada (Braeswood Martial Arts) 10. Re: soon to be a daddy (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 11. Re: To Rudy (Dana Vaillancourt) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:05:01 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Timely_Indeed!!_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dana: ".....I have a timely question. Do you think it somewhat immature, inappropriate, and disrespectful to question your own senior and instructor’s integrity regarding their granting dan rank to others? It seems childish to me that students of the same instructor would assume one has a greater right to dan rank than the other (sounds more like red belts!). Is it not the Senior Instructor’s perspective that is relevant here and not that of what appears to be a jealous or bitter student?..... For instance, people regularly question several well-known Grandmasters who have granted dan rank to others. Have you walked a mile in those shoes (or no shoes) or seen the same cross-section of students they have?...." So lets take a look at this so as to not mix apples and oranges. Are we talking about a TRUE traditional approach or one that only smacks of tradition-- followed only when it is convenient for all concerned? In a TRUE traditional approach it is accurate to say that a teacher is above reproach. He does what he believes is the right thing for the student and for the art in general and he answers to no one. However, such power comes at a cost. If a teacher wishes to be above reproach he must consistently deport himself in a manner above reproach. Most teachers I know can't cash those kinds of checks. It is, then the responsibility of the student to take care of themselves by making sure they are being treated equitably and fairly. NOW THERE IS A CATCH HERE!! The Good Book has a story about guys going to work in a vinyard and when the day was over the early birds griped because the late-starters got paid the same. The boss asked what the bitch was as the earlier birds DID GET EXACTLY WHAT THEY CONTRACTED FOR and if the boss thought giving the same to the late-starters was fair what business was it to the early-birds, right? If you are getting what YOU contracted for from your teacher, what exactly is the complaint, right? Now, for me personally, I could just about care one way or the other when it comes to these rank and status things. MY beef is with the guy who levers some special consideration out of particular personality or authority and then represents that standing AS THOUGH it were something else. For instance, I could start my own organization as a 2nd Degree Black belt and accrue a following. Somebody wants to add my significant membership to his larger membership so he awards me an administrative 8th degree BB. Now, I turn around and represent that 8th degree Black Belt NOT as a guage of my organizational skill but as though it represents my technical KMA ability. Big difference. Even if I don't represent it, but only do nothing to dissuade people from thinking such, I am still at fault. So with this line of thinking I am not really objecting to what somebody is getting but rather what they do with it after they get it. Similarly, using the thinking I have presented, I am not so sure that some peoples' complaints about what individuals' get, or don't get, is just so much meanness, pettiness or envy. An alternate thought is that maybe it pinches a bit when someone cares for something and works hard to do the right things the right way, only to have another cut corners and exploit a system for personal gain. Just like the "antiqued" Chinese swords on E-Bay, or the garish MA uniforms, or the mail-order MA training systems with rank by mail, it hurts to see something wonderful trashed simply because somebody can do it. For me personally, I have a special axe to grind as, the damage these sales-jockies do to the image of MA, and, the students who fell for their crap, is a around a whole lot longer than the promoters are. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: The Company you keep Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 16:58:30 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net True - look what society did with him though - nailed to a tree... -----Original Message----- From: Michael Rowe [mailto:mp_rowe@cox.net] Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 6:16 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The Company you keep << Be careful of the company that you keep, because you will certainly be judged by it. >> I have problems with this. I might be judged by the company I keep and I might be judged wrongly but then again people shouldn't judge my company anyway. Jesus must have been a lousy person with the company he kept (thieves, harlots, and tax collectors) heck he must have been a mobster ;) Michael "soon to be a daddy" Rowe _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.454 / Virus Database: 253 - Release Date: 2/10/2003 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Pioneers of Tae Kwon Do To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:07:40 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > standards. Here are my questions then.....how did they continue to become > more proficient in their arts and rise to higher levels? Did they keep in > contact with their Japanese instructors? I do not believe they kept in contact with their old instructors. That may, or may not, have even been possible. As I understand it, at one point the original Kwan heads got together and decided to promote each other. In many cases they did 'independent research', learning a bit to a lot of Yudo, Hapkido, Taekkyon, GungFu arts, etc., researched the literature and continued to grow themselves and their arts. > How and when did TKD/TSD become "kicking-centric", since the roots of > the five kwans were Jap Karate? The move of Korean Karate to be more kicking-centric was an attempt to differentiate the art and the Kwans from the Japanese. Given the existence of the kick/sweep based art of Taekkyon it seems it was a fairly natural move on their part. imho Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:10:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] ending JP Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok folks... Time to stop beating up on good ole JP. We can hash all this all over again come spring... Say, isn't it way past time to beat up again on the LA Boyz? :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Peeing in your own well To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:17:04 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have a timely question. Do you think it somewhat immature, inappropriate, > and disrespectful to question your own senior and instructor's integrity > regarding their granting dan rank to others? It seems some folks just like to complain, to everyone except their instructor... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:38:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] US Open Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The down and back to the US Open at UNLV was a VERY quick trip, but we had to be back in town this evening. Fun times! Good to see folks and many good laughs about a wide variety of things. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:46:06 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] rank-rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am pretty sure jp's 1st dan in hapkido was a certificate from Wollmershauser's American Hapkido org., I don't think it was from the J. Park connection,, although,, I might be wrong.. at the time that I witnessed the promotions I had other things on my mind, like the fact that it was about 95 degrees in Chester's Dojo, and all the stuff I was practicing, and falls I was taking, so the details are sketchy,, but the feeling I had in my gut was very real and it told me what was going on was purely political,, oh well,, not my cross to bear,, you guys make up your own mind now that you have the facts,, one more thing,, on the subject that jp obviously fills a market void and therefore has value??? Would that be how heroin dealers fill a market void, or how child porn losers fill a market void? I know I am citing some extremes here but just because there is a market void doesn't mean it is honorable or right to fill it.... Bruce Simms stated some very good points,, and I have jumped on Bruce before like a double quarter pounder at mcdonalds, but he does put it in good perspective, no offense Bruce your still my dog,,, HEY,, I'm sorry but if all these TKD guys want to learn HKD then MAKE them LEARN Hapkido, don't cater to their ego and wallet,,, it hurts all HKD people and makes us look like a bunch of jokers,, LEARN THE ART AND THEN GET THE PROMOTION, IS THAT SO HARD TO DO? I think it is hard to do in that order IF you have some financial agenda that is more important then the real love of the art..... Michael Tomlinson www.zdragon.bitbytenibble.com _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Dana Vaillancourt" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 03:58:26 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: a bit more on JP (Victor Cushing) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Victor. First of all, my post was not aimed at anyone on this list. It is one of those questions that hits home to all of us because I'm sure we've all felt some promotions did not meet up to our own standards and took it somewhat personally. I've learned as I've gotten older and walked in the shoes of my instructors that my perspectives'change and I can often understand why they've done some things I use to question. Nothing gives me greater satisfaction than seeing the light go on in one of my own instructors about something I may have done that they didn't get then, but get now as they are in those same shoes (generally involving teaching)! However, I still have small feet and have occasional petty feelings, so I guess I have not walked in all of my instructors' shoes. Perhaps when I get the chance, I'll either understand why they did some thing, smile, or never do things that way myself (which has happened occasionally). It gets easy to complain about other's skills that don't meet your expectations, but "I" still feel it is the instructor who has the moral obligation to promote to their standards. As Jere said, you do not have to accept rank, you can walk away. BUT, if you respect that instructor, you respect their decision and honor it. If you don't respect them, the rank would mean nothing anyways--so don't stay with them. FYI. I do know JP's background, but since we are on the topic, that really wasn't my point (whether I agree with you or not). The point was, if you share the same instructor, does it not belittle their decisions to question them when they apply to other students ranks? If you value their integrity, I guess you are obligated to value their judgment on others as it reflects on your rank as well. Best. Dana _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] testing in Canada Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:03:53 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have had the opportunity to take this test last year, and I can tell you it was GREAT!!!!!!! You can see some of the highlights on our web-site (www.braeswoodmartialart.com) I attempt to make each of our tests here at BMAC a true "test". Perhaps one day our tests will compare with our Canadian Family. Kat --__--__-- Message: 10 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 23:07:35 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: soon to be a daddy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Michael "soon to be a daddy" Rowe" well that's the best information to come out of all the pelligrini posts :) congrats, mike! there's nothing like being a parent. and there's nothing like raising a martial artist. can't remember if i posted about this, but we were doing chul bong (nunchaku) techniques in class a few weeks ago. i had the class circled around a heavy bag, taking turns beating on it with their chul bong in order to learn how to react to/control the bounce back. boone jumped up next to me, wanted her chul bong and took her turn on the bag. the kid is only two...lol. again, congratulations to you and your wife. take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1-573-673-2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1-877-847-4072 --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Dana Vaillancourt" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 04:15:11 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: To Rudy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rudy. Thanks for your reply, I agree with much of what you say. Every student is different and we often have high expectations. I remember commenting to one of my seniors that I was worried when I hold a dan tests because the students never seem to rise to my expectations. I hope to see superior technical ability, advanced acedemic insight in their papers, heart, compassion, etc. I was simply advised that no one might rise to all of those expectations and that I should be worried when the majority of testing people meet or exceed all of my expectations. In closing, is it possible to keep one woman happy!!?? Best. Dana (Still married over 20 years) _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest