Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:17:01 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #95 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Pelligrini's ORG's - Clarification (Clear the Record) (FirstPe315@aol.com) 2. Pyong-Ahn Forms (singplay) 3. Re: Pyong-Ahn Forms (Braeswood Martial Arts) 4. Re: A Gathering Of American Senior KMA Pratitioners (Chosondo@aol.com) 5. The next step (for Bruce) - LONG (Christopher Spiller) 6. Re: (no subject) (Braeswood Martial Arts) 7. Some Observations (tg dewey) 8. Re: Re: A Gathering Of American Senior KMA Pratitioners (Ray Terry) 9. Rumors (Ray Terry) 10. Mike Rowe and diapers (michael tomlinson) 11. Re:_Timely_Indeed!!_?= (Dana Vaillancourt) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: FirstPe315@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 03:57:01 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Pelligrini's ORG's - Clarification (Clear the Record) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just to make sure this is noted properly. JP did not receive ANY rank from Mr. Garrison ... he sure tried hard though. Jeff In a message dated 2/20/2003 3:53:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > The orgs were James Benko's MTA, Dave Weatherly's NAHA, James Garrison's > WOMAF and Gm Myung's WHF. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "singplay" To: Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 05:32:46 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Pyong-Ahn Forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all, The Taekwondo club I belong to is making some changes to it's curriculum and required forms. We are currently doing all ITF forms, but soon the beginning and intermediate ranks will be doing the Pyong-Ahn forms. Will someone point me to a website or other resource that will explain these forms and hopefully have some videos available? Thanks in advance for your help, Don --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Pyong-Ahn Forms Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 09:25:06 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master McHenry's sight is a great resource for these forms, I use them myself from time to time. http://mchenry.homeip.net/TangSooDo/forms/index.htm Kat --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Chosondo@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:37:47 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: A Gathering Of American Senior KMA Pratitioners Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 2/21/2003 8:01:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > "Obviously, he is filling a market void and there are > plenty of folks out there who is filling it." > > Very nice point. He was very smart in filling that > void which was his ultimate goal (giving a self > defense curriculm to TKD schools that didn't really > have it). I tip my hat to him for that. However, does > that give him the right to jump ranks for teaching > basic HKD skills? > > "So, let's move on to an issue plagueing Korean > Martial Arts, like why getting American senior Korean > Martial Artists together is like herding cats." > > Funny, but true. Too all the GM's on this list, would > you be willing to travel to Chicago if we had a > massive gathering up here? Instead of talking about > why it's not happening, let's make it happen. I am > willing to invest some time, money and effort into > making a gathering of GM's in this area if the GM's > are willing to show support in showing up. I can be > reached at unitedmartialarts@msn.com. Let me know if > anyone is interested. Let's make it happen in 2004! > > Jeremy > > > Jeremy, I have tried that numerous times. GMs Timmerman, DeAlba, Baubil, West, and even our friend JP can atest to my efrforts. I tried it last April in the Chicago area and almost lost my shirt in the process. Not to speak ill of anyone, but everyone was too busy to committ to such a notewortrhy endeavor. It seems like we are all kings of our little hills and don't want to get off to climb a mountain. The GMs of Korean parentage all stick together, but we don't. Until we get together and take our bone back, we'll not be taken seriously (with all due respect) by our Korean counterparts. Lack of solidarity is killing us. Many of are still feeling inadequate, so we continue to look to our Korean counterparts for approval and leadership Do you guys know what would happen if the senior American KMA practitioners all get togther and, for argument sake, form "The Korean Martial Arts Alliance(KMAA)".The KMAA would promote inclusion and autonomy of the stakeholders. It would be a basis for support, growth, and recognition. This would require thinking outside the box... ____________________________________ Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster International Chosondo Federation Choson Kwon Bup - Hapkido - Taekwondo 7252 Valley Avenue Phila., PA 19128 215-483-5057 --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 07:38:18 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The next step (for Bruce) - LONG Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In reply to Bruce: >Taken within the context of my original post, then, it would seem that what you are suggesting is that schizms and spin-offs are the natural result of what we are teaching in our KMA classes, yes?< Exactly. Now, I do want to qualify things. Just because this is what’s being taught doesn’t mean it’s being consciously taught. Instructors can talk a lot about being loyal to one’s seniors, but if they aren’t then the students sees that there are instances (limited though they may be) that can justify breaking away. Is this good or bad? Now THAT depends on the situation, IMO. >I suppose that if I were to draw a parallel with modern education, one would expect that the student would graduate sooner or later and some students would go on to start educational institutes of their own. I can see the wisdom and the realism in this line of thinking. Where this thinking begins to breakdown for me is in knowing what it is that each subsequent generation owes the previous generation in terms of authenticity and tradition. Because a person CAN split off and originate their own material does it follow that a person MUST do this?< Of course not. Just because something is possible doesn’t mean it’s moral/right to do in a given situation (although the widespread belief that this IS in fact the case in the US is disturbing to me). One must weigh the pros and cons – and for sake of argument I’ll assume they go beyond something like wanting to keep the testing fees for yourself or being the big fish in a small pond. Students owe their instructors, no doubt about that. Gen. Choi put it this way: “Mother and father are the parents who brought me up, Teacher is the parent who educated me.” I think there’s a lot of truth to this (although I don’t think the analogy should be pushed TOO far). However, instructors also owe their students, not least of which is for their continued support and loyalty. >We had been talking about teaching Hapkido and when does a KMA no longer deserve to be called a KMA. If the way that we teach our students makes developing a style of school of ones' own inevitable, then we must resolve just what it is that person owes to the previous generation-- if anything.< Let me clarify. I don’t think breaking away in “inevitable” (at least not de fact, maybe de iure, however). I do think that the behavior of people in MA’s (and not just Korean MA’s) makes it exceptionally likely, however. I am personally at the point of beginning to wonder if MA’s are well suited to “deliver the goods” of what they’re supposedly teaching – you know, character development, humility, self-confidence, etc. The results I have seen are less than shining examples. Usually when I meet a humble high ranking individual it’s a surprise! Shouldn’t it be rather the rule than the exception? (Please people, no comments about the problems with the ranking system – I’m aware of it). As for what we owe the previous generation; respect certainly. That may not translate into monetary or material results, but it’s a currency that’s all too lacking in today’s society (in the MA’s as well as the culture at large). There’s nothing more annoying than seeing an instructor bad mouth someone he’s studied with for years! Gosh, HE’s such a jerk and yet you were his student for a decade? Let’s hope the apple didn’t fall from the tree but was thrown! Otherwise we’re just going to get a replay of past events. As for loyalty, please see above. I of course believe that we give our instructors our loyalty, but it’s a two way street. >The comment I made about 1st and 2nd generation Korean teachers comes from various experiences in which teachers have split from originating organizations and/or set-up strictures so that their students may not interact with KMA "cousins". Is it possible to continue to teach the material of ones' teacher and still honor whatever one owes to themselves in starting their own entity? Is it possible to get many people who place autonomy and individual freedon above affiliation to work together, or would we have the proverbial "room full of tigers" all waiting for the opportunity to use and abuse each other?< I think these things are possible, but not easy. Don’t get me wrong, I would LOVE for people to get along. But it’s simply not going to happen at all times. There are a lot of reasons for this, not least of which is the failure to have a common vision in whatever endeavor we happen to be undertaking together. Your question regarding the possibility of getting people together to cooperate is pointed. It seems to me that this is going to be the exception rather than the rule. Whether that’s good, bad, or indifferent is another matter – I think it’s a shame that it doesn’t happen more often. Sadly, I don’t have any definitive answer to this question, which is perhaps the most pressing on a daily living level. In my own experiences I have been extremely fortunate in my training, both regular and seminar-based. My normal instructor has always been open to me going to other people’s tournaments and seminars (even when he wasn’t promoting them he certainly wasn’t denigrating them). The seminars I’ve been to have been both open to the general MA community and for org. members only (and perhaps ironically it was at one of the “open” seminars that we got to hear the most about other people who did things “the wrong way”!). __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 09:42:28 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net AMEN!!! > Heck, most of us have a problem keeping just one > woman happy:) > Rudy > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 07:43:08 -0800 (PST) From: tg dewey To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Some Observations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have read all the posts about GM Pellegrini with interest. What I understand from what you all have written is that GM's Wollmerhauser (sorry if that is spelled wrong), Myung and Seo (and whoever else was listed) are all money hungry morons who will pass out rank to anyone willing to pay for it?? Is that what you guys are saying?? Cause it sure sounds like it. And if they are all money hungry morons, then why do the "true" practitioners of Hapkido go to them (especially for their Ki-Do rank) when they are just "in it for the money"... Couldn't it be said that all rank issued from them is "administrative rank" (I believe someone called it) if all they do is collect money without caring about one's skills... only what that person can do for them moneywise... Couldn't the same be said about them as is being said about GM Pellegrini? (No disrespect meant to anyone listed!!) Organization jumping: Mr. Cushing invited us to look at his training record on his website. So I did... and I see that he has been with 3 different organizations including GM Pellegrini's under which he lists a 5th Dan. Did GM Pellegrini give him that 5th Dan (or did I read it wrong?) And if GM Pellegrini is so bad at Hapkido, then why did Vic Cushing accept that 5th Dan? Anyway... couldn't one infer from Mr. Cushing being under 3 different organizations that he has been "Organization Jumping" as well? And with each organization he went to, he received rank so couldn't the same thing be said for him that is being said about GM Pellegrini? Maybe not about the training time because he lays it all out for us and GM Pellegrini doesn't but still the reference could be the same. (No disrespect meant Mr. Cushing!) Also I looked at the ICHF website again (to see if his training dates were listed like Vic Cushing has his listed, which they are not) but one thing I noticed is that the man is booked for a seminar just about every weekend of 2003 and already has some for 2004 (and from the packet of information I received, he charges a hefty price for one, while Mr. Cushing does his for free and doesn't have any booked). Mr. Cushing if you do have any seminars scheduled, I would like to know when and where and the cost as I would like to attend one. I believe it was Ray that told me I needed to research and see what was best for me (thank you Ray... excellent advice) so I have decided to do just that. I am going to attend one of GM Pellegrini's seminars and I would also like to attend one of Mr. Cushing's and if there is anyone else on the list that has a HKD Organization, please let me know as I would like to attend their seminars as well before I decide to align myself to an Organization. All the above is just my observations... I mean no disrespect or criticizm to anyone... I'm just trying to sort out all the information that I receive as I have talked to people that think GM Pellegrini is great and I have read all the posts here that think he is dirt... It is a very confusing issue to say the least!! Best wishes to all, TG --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: A Gathering Of American Senior KMA Pratitioners To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 08:02:24 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... The GMs of Korean parentage all stick together, but we don't. But do they? Outside of perhaps the Kukkiwon, what examples do we have of that occurring? Just look at how many HKD orgs there are in Korea. Or how many TSD orgs there are here in the States headed up by different Korean Gms. I'm not saying that is a good thing. Just that imho the Korean Gms cannot be looked to as an example of sticking together. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 08:17:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Rumors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net WTF-ITF meeting and merge rumors... "The meeting is tentatively scheduled for Feb 25 - Mar 5. GM Hwang thinks it may be pushed back a few days. Regardless, we will certainly post the results of his talks on this site. We do already know that ITF has been invited to compete in the olympics with WTF in 2004. This is a merger of teams (part ITF, part WTF) not a merger of styles." --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 17:53:11 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mike Rowe and diapers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Mike good luck with the new baby, and I can still remember trying to practice my tan jun breathing while changing all those diapers,, truly an experience every dad should go thru,, good luck, and DON'T ask me for help with diapers or feeding, I've definately done my time on those tasks,,,, ha ha Michael Tomlinson zdragon.bitbytenibble.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Dana Vaillancourt" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 18:50:55 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:_Timely_Indeed!!_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce. Thanks for your perspective. Bruce wrote: [snip] tradition-- followed only when it is convenient for all concerned? In a TRUE traditional approach it is accurate to say that a teacher is above reproach. He does what he believes is the right thing for the student and for the art in general and he answers to no one. However, such power comes at a cost. If a teacher wishes to be above reproach he must consistently deport himself in a manner above reproach. Most teachers I know can't cash those kinds of checks. It is, then the responsibility of the student to take care of themselves by making sure they are being treated equitably and fairly.> You're right, reality seldom adheres to the ideal and Grandmasters, being people, can fall as short as the rest of us. And most of us all know that "TRUE tradition" is a relative phrase depending on how much you may actually know about the 'not so golden old days." My point is, without knowing the actual reason some of these decisions are made, it makes more sense to "beard the lion in its own den" and ask your instructor about the fruit in the proverbial basket (i.e., are we talking apples and oranges or not?). Then, like you said, you hopefully have the information to assure whether you are being treated "equitably and fairly." If you feel, after that information (or not), you have a choice to make. If you do not have that information from the relevant source, than you merely bring all parties involved down by complaining about it publically. >Now, for me personally, I could just about care one way or the other when >it comes to these rank and status things. MY beef is with the guy who >levers some special consideration out of particular personality or authority and then represents that standing AS THOUGH it were something else. For instance, I could start my own organization as a 2nd Degree Black belt and accrue a following. Somebody wants to add my significant >membership to his larger membership so he awards me an administrative 8th >degree BB. Now, I turn around and represent that 8th degree Black Belt NOT >as a gauge of my organizational skill but as though it represents my > >technical KMA ability. Big difference. Even if I don't represent it, but >only do nothing to dissuade people from thinking such, I am still at >fault.So with this line of thinking I am not really objecting to what >somebody is getting but rather what they do with it after they get it.> Now, don't think I don't agree with you, but whos call is it whether a dan is given for administrative or technical reasons? While I believe dans should become more technically proficient as they progress, aren't teaching and administrative skills also a sign of a leader. Who furthers an art more, someone teaching two perfect students or someone poorly teaching twenty people? Do the twenty continue their journey and seek more or less? I do not know these answers, but it is interesting to ask the questions. It would be interesting to ask the Senior practitioners granting the rank their perspectives. peoples' complaints about what individuals' get, or don't get, is just so >much meanness, pettiness or envy. An alternate thought is that maybe it >pinches a bit when someone cares for something and works hard to do the >right things the right way, only to have another cut corners and exploit a >system for personal gain.> When you work hard for something and feel you deserve it, it is difficult when you think the system is being used for personal gain. But, what is the gain? Prestige? Money? Personal satisfaction? Similarly, what are the organizational gains? Money? More students? Outreach? (Etc.) What are the goals of the students, instructors, and organization? Are they the same or different? Which perspective are you viewing the other from. Arggggg. No answers.....just more questions. Thanks again. Best. Dana _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest