Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 11:46:01 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #111 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Distraction techniques in Hapkido (Jye nigma) 2. Concerns about disease transmission (Chuck Mattern) 3. Re: distraction and principles (K. Barends) 4. Re: Three principles (Klaas Barends) 5. Ground Fighting and Matt Hodges (J.R. West) 6. Southern Michigan (Burdick, Dakin R) 7. Re: Concerns about disease transmission (Ray Terry) 8. Re: Re: distraction and principles (Ray Terry) 9. Re: Ground Fighting and Matt Hodges (Braeswood Martial Arts) 10. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Licensure_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 11. Gopher throwing (Rudy Timmerman) 12. Re: Concerns about disease transmission (Chuck Mattern) 13. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Rank_Testing_Requirements_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 21:16:01 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Distraction techniques in Hapkido To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From another group....this is an aikido practitioner's answer to distractions... The problem with using a low kick as a distraction is that it compromises your own balance. It will probably work most of the time if you are quick but if the other guy moves at the wrong time you will loose every bit of body power you were trying to engage. Regards, Chris Hartigan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 2 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Chuck Mattern Date: 03 Mar 2003 00:17:47 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Concerns about disease transmission Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings all, This is one of those topics that's bound to be uncomfortable but I feel like I need to get some feedback. What is common practice these days with regard to punching bags, and the risk of disease transmission? Clearly when one works a heavy bag s/he will sweat on the bag. Frequently there is some minor seepage of blood when folks train more strenuously, and then there are the folks who just don't know when to quit (a category I may fall into myself). Either of these fluids around broken skin would seem to present a risk to the next student up on the bag, particularly if the bag or training device is being used in quick succession by multiple students. What, if anything, are the readers of the list doing to reduce the risk of disease transmission in this manner? I ask this as a concerned instructor trying to look out for the best interest of my students. Regards, Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- |Chuck Mattern | "People often find it easier to be a result | |camattern@acm.org | of the past than a cause of the future." | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:05:22 +0100 From: "K. Barends" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: distraction and principles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > IMO, a kick can, or should be part of the step so there is little > wasted > motion with increased damage potential. Going from point A to point B, > my foot > slams your shin, steps on your foot, etc.. Without doing so it's just > a "lost > opportunity." It's not so much of a "softening technique" but part of > my > strategy to take you out from your head to your toes. What people seem to forget in this discussion is that hapkido is more than just self-defence or a way of hurting people as much as possible. Most important for hapkido is the use of the three principles, (1)circle, (2)fluency like water and (3)harmony. And their is a huge difference between what you do on the mat and what you do in a real dangerous situtation. When I hear master say that they want to prepare their students as much as possible for the real situations and by that they don't teach the stuff they find inadequate for these situations. The first thing that comes to my mind is 'You don't teach hapkido, but you teach self-defence (with some hapkido techniques)'. But their is a difference between hapkido and 'self-defence with hapkido techniques'. When you learn hapkido, you learn how to make use of the three principles to control your partner on the mat. That is your basic training, once you have a stable basis you can grow in the art. When your basis isn't stable (yet) you probably have the need for 'a not so beautiful solution'. (of course when you are in a life threatening situation, do what ever you can to get out of it, even when it doesn't look beautiful) Another way to look at is, unbalancing your opponent (by good use of your body and mind tru the three principles) you are distracting your opponent's mind. He is out of balance, and all is body wants is to get into balance again. When his mind is in this situation you can 'easily' make use of the third principle. PS. It's hard for my to express my thoughts in English, please be gentle with your comments ;-) -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:12:18 +0100 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Three principles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hankido techniques are based upon 3 basic principles; the fast spin theory, the flow of energy and power like water, and the theory of harmony. The fast-spin-theory. Spinning means that your movements are circular. Like most other martial arts which are based on this principle, Hankido is a soft style or internal martial art. Where hard style or external martial arts use physical power to counter an attack, soft style martial arts use the opponents power by making circular movements. Instead of countering a forward punch by using a power block, we circle around the punch and lead the attack to a point where it is harmless to us. The fast spin theory is also used in throwing techniques, and some kicks and strikes. By spinning fast, one can also develop devastating power to use for a counter attack. The flow of energy and power like water. To a Korean person water symbolises the ability to adapt, and it also symbolizes softness. Water does not fight object that are in its way, it flows around it, the energy is not interrupted but goes on. In Hankido this counts for the attacker as well as for the defender. The defender does not interrupt the attack but he lets it flow, just like his own techniques. Water is very soft, but when it flows towards one point (like in a fire-hose) it has devastating power. The movements in Hankido are very gentle, soft. But when power is used, it is all concentrated towards a single point. Theory of harmony. Very important to Hankido is the harmony between your spirit, your body and the environment. You have to learn to be in harmony with yourself as well as your opponent. It is very important to be able to feel your techniques, this allows you to be able to feel what your opponent is thinking and adapt to his attach so that the harmony is not disturbed. When these things are in harmony it releases the energy we call KI, this is what Hankido is all about, the way of harmonious power. http://www.hapkido.nl/uk/index.php?mode=info&Page=145 -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "J.R. West" To: Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 10:24:36 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ground Fighting and Matt Hodges Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Also, Matt > Hodges, one of Master West's yudanja at his dojang in Jackson is one of the > meanest and most serious hapkido ground fighters I have seen. Last year at > the 'International' he taught hapkido ground fighting. Jere R. Hilland More news on Matt Hodges. Matt will not be with us this week as he has enlisted, and applied for and accepted into the Ranger program, with intention to do the "Q" course at completion and throw in OCS sometime during that time. Matt, as Master Hilland stated, is the consummate dojang rat, who is always first in, last out. What uncle Sam's army doesn't know (yet), is that prior to his enlistment, Matt taught self-defense, weapons, including automatic, pistol and shotgun, at "Blackwater" in VA, and was the youngest combat instructor in their history. I can't wait to hear how he does in "close quarter combatives". J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:32:15 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Southern Michigan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rudy wrote: >Re the Indiana suggestion by Dakin. This sounds like another great >place for the folks who can easily reach that area; however, the >location is a bit farther than I could use for the folks in this area. > I am looking for something in the Toledo, OH, or Detroit, MI area, >because these locations are at about the geographical center of a group >of people I can count on for support. You might want to consider contacting people at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor. The Daito-ryu folks there seem to have a strong program, and they might be good folks to hang out with. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Concerns about disease transmission To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:48:17 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > is being used in quick succession by multiple students. What, if > anything, are the readers of the list doing to reduce the risk of > disease transmission in this manner? I ask this as a concerned > instructor trying to look out for the best interest of my students. What about wearing bag gloves? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: distraction and principles To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:53:12 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > What people seem to forget in this discussion is that hapkido is more > than just self-defence or a way of hurting people as much as possible. Granted, HKD has developed in that direction in many dojangs. However imho the original intent of Hapkido -was- for self-defense and for hurting people. Not for development of 'the way' per the influence of Dr. Kano, et al. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Ground Fighting and Matt Hodges Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:37:46 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I will truly miss Mr. Hodges this weekend. I was hoping to take his ground techniques seminar again. I wish him well on his new adventure and can't wait to hear his stories. Kat > More news on Matt Hodges. Matt will not be with us this week as he has > enlisted, and applied for and accepted into the Ranger program, with > intention to do the "Q" course at completion and throw in OCS sometime > during that time. Matt, as Master Hilland stated, is the consummate dojang > rat, who is always first in, last out. What uncle Sam's army doesn't know > (yet), is that prior to his enlistment, Matt taught self-defense, weapons, > including automatic, pistol and shotgun, at "Blackwater" in VA, and was the > youngest combat instructor in their history. I can't wait to hear how he > does in "close quarter combatives". J. R. West www.hapkido.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:16:37 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Licensure_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: "..... THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK, REPRESENTED IN SENATE AND ASSEMBLY, DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS: 1 Section 1. The commissioner of education is hereby directed within six 2 months of the effective date of this act to require the licensure of 3 martial arts instructors and of any school, institution, organization, 4 business or other entity which offers martial arts instruction and to 5 promulgate rules and regulations necessary for such purpose. 6 S 2. This act shall take effect immediately......." The implications of such a ruling are pretty serious for the martial arts as a profession. However, it would seem that such a rule would have a much greater impact on those who open schools with a guep or Sho-dan rank than those who have spent a number of years under the tutlage of an identified KMA leader and open a school with that persons' blessings. All the same, I am left to wonder what sort of background sucha commissioner might have to perform this task, or what individuals one might call on to assist in organizing such "rules and regulations". In the UK I understand that they don't have a MA school on every street corner and apparently for this very reason. I am thinking that, in a way, such oversight tends to weed out the MA school wannabees from the dedicated professionals the way that rank testing the the KMA tends to weed-out the KMA wannabees from the dedicated students who train consistently. Love to hear peoples thoughts on this proposal..... Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:55:46 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Gopher throwing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net John writes: > Tibetan Gopher Throwing (TGT) grew out of a local adaptation of > advanced > Hapkido techniques. Hello John. I am a bit concerned that no one has mentioned the five safety precautions in this highly sophisticated set of TGT techniques. I know that JR has conveyed them to all students who partake in this very strenuous activity. #1 Speed. It is essential to grab the little beggar and get the throw off before it has a chance to bite or release that fearsome and odifferous gas. #2 Make sure never to fully extend the throwing arm lest you are willing to get the dreaded "gopher elbow". #3 Focus is critical, because the critters have a nasty tendency to come back and bite your butt if the initial throw does not render it unconscious. #4 Advanced throws require the critter to be fully greased, and that brings about a whole new set of safety issues such as trimming finger nails just right to promote better grip. #5 Last but not least. The most advanced TGT technicians are able to grab the critter right out of its burrow, toss it a minimum of 12 feet into the air, and palm strike it to the intended target in a single, fluid motion. In order to properly execute this highly advanced technique, on must be aware of the final safety issue, and that is to ensure that the initial toss in the air has the critter properly turned to face the TGT practitioner when it comes into palm strike range. Not doing so could cause the critter to be rear first when you palm strike it, and that would release a mess that could take years to clean and cause all your friends to leave. In addition to all of the above, it is essential that all TGT practitioners understand the importance of keeping track of the location of all Animal Protection Agents, and never toss a single gopher unless the coast is clear. I have been assured that there is a highly respected martial art org located near the Everglades that can "sell" you an authentic TGT certificate. It must be noted that these certificates do NOT bear the founder's signature; however, they can be had without testing or otherwise proving sufficient knowledge of TGT skills. It has been reported that certificates will soon be available at EBay. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 12 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Concerns about disease transmission From: Chuck Mattern Date: 03 Mar 2003 14:20:18 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray Terry writes: > > is being used in quick succession by multiple students. What, if > > anything, are the readers of the list doing to reduce the risk of > > disease transmission in this manner? I ask this as a concerned > > instructor trying to look out for the best interest of my students. > > What about wearing bag gloves? That was pretty much my fall back, but I'm planning on suggesting shoes as well. Part of what got me started on this is that my ex-wife is taking an "aerobics kick boxing class" at work (oh the years I spent trying to entice her into a real dojang and now this...), and she mentioned that the whole class had been instructed to take off their shoes when working on the bags, then she showed off the scabs on her instep from the round kicks. The alarm bells started going off in my head with the vision of a bunch of sweaty folks all skinning the tops of their feet off on the same bag and, to an extent, swapping body fluids in the process, then I realized that my students and I are in the same boat. I think part of what I'm getting to here is "Am I being overly paranoid?" I don't think I am but a little reality check never hurts. Regards, Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- |Chuck Mattern | "People often find it easier to be a result | |camattern@acm.org | of the past than a cause of the future." | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:57:47 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Rank_Testing_Requirements_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Tim (and Rudy): "......currently train under the tutelage of GM Rudy Timmerman in the art of KONG SHIN BUP, and I noticed some folks are curious about our requirements to earn a black belt..... I am currently a Dahn Bo and just began the testing procedure to earn my black belt..... .....I will need to test a total of four times, and (if all goes well) I hope to earn that rank this November..... The following is a summarization of the requirements necessary for me to complete this test. ....." Some time back there was a discussion of testing requirements and I am thinking that perhaps this is a good time to consider the nature of such as it might provide for the good of the KMA. In a phrase, isn't what you have shared, Tim, "overkill"? Perhaps if we take these an area at a time it might be of some help. 1.) Fitness requirements. Lets put to oneside that even younger, athletic individuals would be sorely tested to qualify, or that such requirements do not speak to actual KMA skills, or that such physical ability could readily suggest an individual well-able to use physical accumin rather than skill. Lets put to oneside that simply training to attain this level of performance is physically counter-productive to the body and detracts from time that could be spent delving deeper into the sophistication and later the improvement of ones' skills and arts. How does one arrive at such criteria--- and where does it stop? Can the teacher down the street add a 5K Run and boast that their criteria are tougher--- therefore better? Is doing 50 push-ups better than 40 and therefore not as good as 60? And what does this have to do with ones' actual skills in KMA? Am I to guess that the warrior monks of the Imjin War, or the typical practitioner of today would spend so much time learning to do high repetitions of calesthetics? 2.) Basic requirements: Are these tests cummulative? If so, is there some purpose to retesting students over the same material they have already shown competence with in previous testing? By the time one is testing for 1st BB is it truely necessary to demonstrate "Etiquette (Yea Eue)" as a criteria for testing? Is it necessary to perform each technique 23 kicks and strikes (total 46) 20 times (10 left/10 right)for a total of 920 repetitions to demonstrate competence? And this is accomplished AFTER the above mentioned "Phys Ed" test. 3.) Hyung requirements I am not sure where one learns 20 hyung before making 1st Black Belt. If I remember right, Shudokan (a style I studied in my younger years) had some 7 to 9 kata or hyung. Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido has 5 hyung and all are empty-hand. Where did the number 20 come from and is it necessary to repeat them 4 times for a total of 80 performances? A first degree BB test in Yon Mu Kwan might require an individual to perform each hyung 3 times, but even then that would be only if the performance was solely, and seriously, in question. 4.) Ho Shin Sool requirements Now, we have done an exhaustive Phys Ed and Concussive test as well as an exhaustive hyung test and the next thing on the schedule is "200 techniques (25 of which involve weapons - specifically dahn bong and knife) complete with takedowns". I won't even go into the "acrobatics" or the breakfall requirements, or the breaking requirements if it comes to that. Pardon me for saying so but the word "Overkill" is screaming in my brain. I attended a TKD 4th degree BB test once that was not this heroic. By now I am sure that not a few people are wondering why I am taking all this bandwidth to comment and my answer is quite simple. Every so often we have a discussion on this Net about how people are cutting corners and Buying certification and licenses from unmentionable personalities who are only to willing to sell them. The question(usually unstated) is "why would someone not do it the "right" way and test in front of a legitimate teacher or board. I have to tell you Tim, Rudy, that if someone were to ask me to take a test like this I would probably look for an easy way out as well. As a History or Science teacher I know that I could overwhelm my High School students with sheer volume and intentsity of material. The point, to my way of thinking, however, is to give them attainable goals that they have a decent chance of winning and still lead normal lives. (An alternative for the sake of arguement is to look at the suicide rate in Japan following their academic "Hell Week" testing to get into the best schools.)And, as I stated before, where do you go from 1st BB? Is the next test harder yet? And if you are doing this at 1st BB what will you be requiring for 4th and 5th BB? I know this is going to seem as though I am putting you both on the spot but I think these are important questions. I have the same axe to grind with "traditional TKD teachers" who still make their students do 2 or 3 hundred kicks in every class. Perhaps a reality sandwich is in order, yes? It seems an awfully high bar just to have bragging rights regarding having tough testing standards. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest