Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 14:45:04 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #112 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Gopher throwing (Ray Terry) 2. Re: Concerns about disease transmission (Chris LaCava) 3. low kicks and the military (two unrelated topics?) (Burdick, Dakin R) 4. Re:Testing Requirements (Dewitt, Garrett) 5. Work exercises (jmchie@wideopenwest.com) 6. Liscense? (Art VanVranken) 7. How many kicks did you say? (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 8. Re:_Rank_Testing_Requirements (Brian Beach) 9. Testing requirements (Dave Weller) 10. Licensing MA Schools (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 11. More Distracting Thoughts (SEXTONR003@hawaii.rr.com) 12. Rank Testing Requirements (Tim Gregorini) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Gopher throwing To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:32:52 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Hello John. I am a bit concerned that no one has mentioned the five > safety precautions in this highly sophisticated set of TGT techniques. > I know that JR has conveyed them to all students who partake in this > very strenuous activity. Me thinks it is long past time for a TGT FAQ... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Chris LaCava" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 15:09:33 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Concerns about disease transmission Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chuck M.: <> That's easy. We don't hit bags... We hit each other. :) Take care Chris "from CT" LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:09:26 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] low kicks and the military (two unrelated topics?) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chris Hartigan wrote: >The problem with using a low kick as a distraction is that it compromises >your own balance. It will probably work most of the time if you are quick >but if the other guy moves at the wrong time you will loose every bit of >body power you were trying to engage. I guess that depends on what kind of low kick you were trying. If your kicks are integrated into your general tai sabaki, then you won't have much of a problem. Nor would you have a problem if you popped off his knee-cap or broke his instep (tends to slow him down). J.R. West wrote: >More news on Matt Hodges. Matt will not be with us this week as he has enlisted, and applied for and accepted into the Ranger program, with intention to do the "Q" course at completion and throw in OCS sometime during that time. Matt, as Master Hilland stated, is the consummate dojang rat, who is always first in, last out. What uncle Sam's army doesn't know (yet), is that prior to his enlistment, Matt taught self-defense, weapons, including automatic, pistol and shotgun, at "Blackwater" in VA, and was the youngest combat instructor in their history. I can't wait to hear how he does in "close quarter combatives". Having had a friend go through OCS and Ranger school a while back, I have a feeling he will be most annoyed. If he plans to avoid being the nail that needs to be pounded down, then he'll probably have to suffer through some of the worst judo and jujutsu he's had to deal with for a while. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 14:20:34 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Testing Requirements Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am in total agreement with Grandmaster Timmerman's rank testing requirements. Our testing requirements become just as intense (at times, even more so)as the individual gets higher rank. I have had the privilege of sitting in on two of Grandmaster Timmerman's rank tests and those students are very, very proud to demonstrate their skills. When I tested for my Fourth and Fifth Dahn rank, Grandmaster Carl Tate Jr., had us on the floor for sixteen hours each day. We had a new TKD, Hapkido, Grappling and Weapons Instructor come in every few hours. Overkill??? Perhaps, but I learned an awful lot about the martial arts and I also found out that I really want to keep learning the martial arts much more so than the majority of Black Belt Instructors I have had contact with over the years. The Sixth Dahn test was a bit more fun. I have been approached and asked "if I wanted to buy this rank or this rank?" I have no desire ever to do this. I am a student forever and if I do not ever get any higher rank, so be it. I will not disrespect my students nor those that have taught me by ever taking the easy way out. No matter how sore and fatigued I am, I would not change any of it. Far to many KMA Instructors have forgotten how to really teach and train their students as they have become lazy or perhaps they themselves have not been trained or taught to do this. Over the past few years, I have been invited to watch promotional tests at several KMA school in Mpls and I was absolutely sickened by what I saw. Etiquette: This usually is terrible if it even exists. I am one hundred percent behind teaching etiquette as it has a profound effect on all of us in almost all areas of our lives. It has been said to me many, many times, "Master DeWitt, your students really do know a lot about the KMA and their skills levels and courteous behaviors says a lot about your DoJang." I attribute this to Grandmaster Timmerman, Grandmaster Humesky, Grandmaster Pan Gon Song and Grandmaster Carl Tate Jr. Just my two cents Master DeWitt NKMAA Member www.btkd.net --__--__-- Message: 5 From: jmchie@wideopenwest.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 15:03:35 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Work exercises Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I know most of you uber-instructors probably don't have this problem, but you may have students who do so I thought I would solicit some advice :) As an attorney, I have a fairly sedentary day. Ok, I can wear a solid ass imprint into a new chair faster than mother nature can drop a foot of snow in Chicago. Exercise-wise, I have class and also 3 times a week I swim 2000 yards. I figure I'm probably pretty typical, which is, I don't do enough. Is there anything you can recommend during a busy day that might be useful? I mean, I know I'm never going to be the trim swimmer I was at 18 when I was cutting through 7000+ yards/day 6 days a week during 2-a-days, but I didn't have to earn a living then and I was single, so at this point anything helps :) Maybe something I can do over lunch or during breaks that might be a typically overlooked aspect of flexibility, or that might help grip strength or, well, anything useful. Blech, I know I'm probably not getting my question across well here but if anyone can decipher it, advice would be much appreciated. Jim McHie Jr. Student http://www.horizonmartialarts-wellness.com/ --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Art VanVranken" To: Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:57:09 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Liscense? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Didnt hear anything about this until now. Ill talk to my Master tonight to find his view on this subject. Anytime the Government gets into private business like this is never good news. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:15:18 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] How many kicks did you say? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Now wait a minute Bruce. What is wrong with 200-300 kicks in a class? After all, if your a kicker, that is what you work on. As you know, I'm don't really claim TKD affiliation any more, but my normal class has well over 200 kicks, and some may have well over 500. And I have attended a lot of TKD tests, many of which were, or should have been embarassing, to both judges and testing students, but I wouldn't say they were a true test of what a black belt should be (to my way of thinking anyway.) Danny Dunn <<< I attended a TKD 4th degree BB test once that was not this heroic............ I think these are important questions. I have the same axe to grind with "traditional TKD teachers" who still make their students do 2 or 3 hundred kicks in every class.>>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:25:26 -0500 From: Brian Beach To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:_Rank_Testing_Requirements Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net on 3/3/03 2:46 PM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net at the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > I have the same axe to grind > with "traditional TKD teachers" who still make their students do 2 or 3 > hundred kicks in every class. What's your beef with kicking, in my hapkido class this is part of the warm up. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:09:23 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Dave Weller Subject: [The_Dojang] Testing requirements Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Sims wrote in response to GM Timmerman's black belt testing requirements: >3.) Hyung requirements > >I am not sure where one learns 20 hyung before making 1st Black Belt. If I >remember right, Shudokan (a style I studied in my younger years) had some 7 >to 9 kata or hyung. Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido has 5 hyung and all are empty-hand. >Where did the number 20 come from and is it necessary to repeat them 4 >times for a total of 80 performances? A first degree BB test in Yon Mu Kwan >might require an individual to perform each hyung 3 times, but even then >that would be only if the performance was solely, and seriously, in >question. We learn 18 Poomse (hyung) for 1st Dan in our little Tae Kwon Do school. Never had to do a cartwheel at a test, but if my Grand Master (or Master for that matter) said so, I'd be asking. "how many, and how high?" As much as you type Mr. Sims, I'd say the finger pushups would be a snap. Looks to me like GM Timmerman wants his students to be tough, strong and proficient. If you had made it through the years of study required to attain Black Belt under such a teacher, I doubt those requirements would seem "overkill". It'd be just another training session. this of course is the opinion of a Korean Karate guy, so feel free to ignore any or all of it. dave weller --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:33:57 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Licensing MA Schools Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I don't like the idea of any government organization having the authority to license me as an instructor, or my school. And I, like you, work for the government, so I know some of the whys and wherefores. I am not concerned that my credentials would not be sufficient to allow me to be licensed. But the bottom line is, if we give the government, any government, the right to license instructors and schools, we are in effect giving up our RIGHT to teach that which we love, and saying that it is not our right, but a PRIVELEDGE that the government allows us to be engaged in until someone changes their mind. Yes, it might reduce the amount of quacks out there. But it might not, and would certainly lend creedence to those McDojang dollarmakers. In effect, the quacks come and go, and so will the others, but quality schools of all sizes and styles will never need to depend on licensing for legitimacy and longterm survivability. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<<< Love to hear peoples thoughts on this proposal..... Best Wishes, Bruce >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 11 From: To: Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:36:58 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] More Distracting Thoughts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Excellent discussion on distraction. Just want to make it clear from my standpoint that: 1. "distraction" occurs when you make your first move, whatever it is 2. "distraction" can be a "one" count instead of a "one-two" count in which the distraction occurs as the same time, or fraction of a second after the technique. 3. I'm aware of Hapkido principles, stepping, body position, etc as Master West covers it in detail in every class. I'm also aware that things don't always go as planned and that "perfect" move may not occur. Ex. my 5'1" wife would probably not be able to move one of these big Samoans(who are mentally and physically connected to Mother Earth) over here who block out the sun when they stand close to you. I bet she would have a good chance however, by running around biting ankles and pinching inner thighs till she could do a "proper HKD" technique. Proper movement is also sometimes difficult when your feet are off the ground or in a grappling situation! Smaller students really need to know distraction techniques for when they are picked up off the ground. I'm 220 and was picked up once by a wrestler friend and held up in the air like WWF! It was difficult for me to get him in a HKD lock(plus we were both sweating), but he was totally unprepared for my grabbing, biting and pinching. 4. The low kick was only one distraction technique I mentioned, and for me is not so much distraction as it is my preference for multiple techniques. I agree with Ray that HKD is for "killing and maiming," and sometimes we slack off and give the other guy a break if we're in a good mood. And for Aikidoist Chris, one leg off the ground can comprise your balance, but consider also that balance is part of kicking. And of course if it doesn't work flow into something else. 5. Distraction can be a technique in itself. My schoolteacher wife once interrupted a fight between two teenagers but placing her hands under their chins and lifting them up. A male teacher who witnessed her said he wouldn't have believed it if he hadn't seen it with his own eyes. 6. If someone pulls a knife on me, my first comment is going to be, "Don't cut me, I have AIDS!" 7. Granted, my view may be "tainted" by also playing with Bagua and KunTao. However, I'll never forget Master Booth saying to take what you want out of other martial arts and claim it as HKD. With KunTao, for example, multiple techniques occurring at the same time is a given, i.e., elbow lock + knee lock. I use a lot of "training exercises" from these arts to compliment HKD. Bagua also has a great set of exercises that teach you to move one hand/arm in one direction while the other side is doing the opposite, beautiful for HKD. I also learned a lot, and was humbled when I worked in a Psychiatric Intensive Care Unit where some of the psychotic patients would be five times stronger than a normal person. Pain was not part of their vocabulary and they didn't recognize joint locks. When you see a young adult run and repeatedly slam her head into a cinder block wall with no apparent ill effects, you get a new perspective on what might work. 8. And of course there are so many variables to consider that it could go on forever. 9. "It's only a distraction if recognized by the opponent!" 10. That's my view. Randall Sexton www.LaughingHara.com "Sign on Pali Hwy: Speed Limit 45; minimum 40" --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:39:02 -0500 From: Tim Gregorini To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Rank Testing Requirements Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Some time back there was a discussion of testing requirements and I am >thinking that perhaps this is a good time to consider the nature of such as >it might provide for the good of the KMA. In a phrase, isn't what you have >shared, Tim, "overkill"? In the beginning when I was a simple soul and life was complicated enough just getting off the couch, I joined the KMA for the specific reason of attaining some semblance of physicality. I found in GM Timmerman's club just the opportunity to perform to whatever level of effort I choose to exact. I must say that also in the beginning (I started at 40 years of age), I was satisfied with my mediocre progress and was perfectly willing to keep it at that. GM Timmerman; however, as he is with all students, is not satisfied with mediocrity and recognized within myself, that which I could not. Through his and his excellent instructor Sabum Lorne Keatley, they pushed the limits within our class, set goals that seemed unrealistic at the time but became progressively attainable. I have achieved the fitness requirements set out before me because they were set out before me. >Lets put to oneside >that simply training to attain this level of performance is physically >counter-productive to the body and detracts from time that could be spent >delving deeper into the sophistication and later the improvement of ones' >skills and arts. Once again, in the beginning (right out of Genesis), I joined for the pure physical training aspect of the arts and decided to learn a few things along the way only as a side interest. As my physical limitations improved, I found the skills necessary to perform forms and techniques also improved and as a surprising result, found I enjoyed the arts enough to delve deeper into them. >Is it truely necessary to demonstrate "Etiquette (Yea Eue)" as a criteria >for testing? In my deeper realization of what I decided the arts meant to me, I discovered that proper etiquette should be a criteria for life not just for testing and failing to perform simply in a test meant I was not ready to apply the skill to my life. Simplistically, etiquette became the groundwork for discipline in the club and when extended to my personal life, became integral to my demeanor. I also see the beneficial result of offering etiquette to the children in the club because they are quick to benefit from it in their lives. Criteria for testing - definitely because it is a needed skill many people fail to improve on. >Where did the number 20 come from and is it necessary to repeat them 4 >times for a total of 80 performances? These 20 forms appear one by one in my curriculum through every level and are the number required for Black Belt. I can not speak for what comes after - I try not to anticipate that far. Practicing the forms in 4 directions gives one the ability to perform regardless of being disoriented in their surroundings. I have witnessed several members performing forms and once they are told to face a different direction, become very disoriented. This to me is just a simple way to practice more forms. While physically demanding in a test, simple mistakes do not mean we can not recover the next time. >heroic. I have never once considered myself heroic, not even with the job I do (firefighter). To me, it is simply the way I choose to do it. If I had to do it myself, perhaps I would not have found the joy of learning this marvelous way of life. The true heroics are the instructors (GM Timmerman, SB Keatley) for they have kicked, twisted, spun, dropped, pleaded, pulled, cajoled, beat, etc. etc. etc. every ounce of potential I had in me to get me to this point. I hope I can speak for the other members of Kong Shin Bup when I say some day I hope to see what you see - but in the meantime keep seeing it. This really is only my way of doing things - I practice in the club 3--5 times a week and go to gym a couple of other days of the week and while I have overdone it several times, I would not want to give up this experience for another anytime. Please keep in mind that I do not profess to be more proficient in this art merely because I can run far or do my forms in 4 directions. I am thankful to push myself to new limits that I can not see. Proficiency hopefully will come from more practice Fitness is only a base I use to operate on. I also do not admonish this way for everybody but also will not tell anybody they can't at least try. Every member of our club is given the opportunity and the encouragement to try to be better than they were before. It is all they can really ask of us. Thank-you for the opportunity to explain - As I mentioned before it is simply the way I choose to do things. Sincerely; Tim Gregorini --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest