Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 07:26:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #114 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. NYS MA Instructor's license (Neal Konecky) 2. Repetitive injuries (Andrew Pratt) 3. disease transmission (Jeremy Callner) 4. Re: work exercises (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 5. Seminar Venues (Rudy Timmerman) 6. Overkill at testing time (Rudy Timmerman) 7. (no subject) (Rudy Timmerman) 8. Re: Re: Disease Transmission (Chuck Mattern) 9. Re: Concerns about disease transmission (Chuck Mattern) 10. Re: Kinder Gentler Hapkido (Victor Cushing) 11. RE>licensing, yeah right (MW) 12. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_IMVHO_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 13. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Inherited_Leadership_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 14. Re: Repetitive injuries (Ray Terry) 15. Kicks (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 20:25:25 -0800 (PST) From: Neal Konecky To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] NYS MA Instructor's license Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, What was the source of this little gem? Assuming that your news is correct, here is my reaction. The NYS legislature has not been able to produce a timely budget for years. It is gratifying to see that they are bringing their unique expertise to MA. I am curious as to what perceived ill they are seeking to rectify. This has come up before with the issue of background checks for MA instructors who teach kids. Neal Konecky "..... THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK, REPRESENTED IN SENATE AND ASSEMBLY, DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS: 1 Section 1. The commissioner of education is hereby directed within six 2 months of the effective date of this act to require the licensure of 3 martial arts instructors and of any school, institution, organization, 4 business or other entity which offers martial arts instruction and to 5 promulgate rules and regulations necessary for such purpose. 6 S 2. This act shall take effect immediately......." ===== "A general Dissolution of Principles and Manners will more surely overthrow the Liberties of America than the whole force of the Common Enemy" Samuel Adams __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Andrew Pratt" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:27:54 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] Repetitive injuries Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray queried Bruce thusly: >> > In my distant past I can remember attending classes with 40 or so students > who were organized into a circle and each counted 10 kicks. After > completing the circle (400 kicks) we would start to go around the second > time with the next kick, and then the next. Then we would start on hand > techniques. That was in the 70-s. NOW we know about "repetitive motion" > syndromes such as "carpal tunnel" for typists and maybe it is not quite so > smart to ask that students do this sort of thing. Ummm, I don't think so. From what little I know(and it is), repetitive strain injuries tend to arise from HOURS a day, most every day, week in and week out of a repetitive motion. Did I mention years in there??? Kicking a few minutes a day, three or five days a week is probably very unlikely to cause these problems. But I'll admit that it is important to kick properly. Even one or a few fullpower improper kicks can cause problems for many. Comments from others??? << Ray, Hard though this is for me to say this but I have to agree with Bruce on this one (Hi Bruce! ;-P ). My own experience of bent legs, extensive TKD training, and long years of cycling (and perhaps Aikido knee-walking) was worn knee-caps. The doctor at that time advised me to stay away from martial arts (and other physical exercise like cycling). I scrupulously followed this until I had put on weight and became bored and frustrated that my knees were not recovering faster. I now train again but only kick occasionally to remember how things used to be. Regards, Andrew --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Jeremy Callner" To: Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:25:04 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] disease transmission Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I got a really bad staph infection in my elbow last year. I was in danger of losing the use of the joint. Granted, that was my fault for waiting until it got really bad before I saw a doctor, but that's irrelevant. It most likely came from a mat or a bag at my hapkido school. I thought you guys might want to know that not only is such a thing possible, but it actually happens, at least once. Jeremy Callner --__--__-- Message: 4 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 00:35:30 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: work exercises Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Is there anything you can recommend during a busy day that might be useful? " visualization and/or stress reduction/relaxation/meditation techniques. i think people underestimate the power of these. take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1-573-673-2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1-877-847-4072 --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 00:45:32 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Seminar Venues Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > You might want to consider contacting people at the University of > Michigan at Ann Arbor. The Daito-ryu folks there seem to have a strong > program, and they might be good folks to hang out with. Hello Dakin: I am presently in touch with GM Humesky regarding locations. He and his wife Assaya are both Professors there, and GM Humesky also runs a TKD class at the University. Hopefully we can make some arrangements. I still think that your area also has great potential, but I have no idea if the numbers are there in terms of participants. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 01:42:17 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Overkill at testing time Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > Lets put to oneside that even younger, athletic individuals would be > sorely tested to qualify, or that such requirements do not speak to > actual KMA skills, or that such physical ability could readily suggest > an individual well-able to use physical accumin rather than skill. > Lets put to oneside that simply training to attain this level of > performance is physically counter-productive to the body and detracts > from time that could be spent delving deeper into the sophistication > and later the improvement of ones' skills and arts. Hello Bruce: In my school, we have several levels of martial arts. Tim described the KSB curriculum, and its philosophy is to elevate the practitioner to a high level of physical strength as well as martial art ability. BTW, Tim is not a spring chicken:) > How does one arrive at such criteria--- and where does it stop? Can > the teacher down the street add a 5K Run and boast that their criteria > are tougher--- therefore better? Is doing 50 push-ups better than 40 > and therefore not as good as 60? And what does this have to do with > ones' actual skills in KMA? Am I to guess that the warrior monks of > the Imjin War, or the typical practitioner of today would spend so > much time learning to do high repetitions of calesthetics? We could care less what the fellow next door might want to add. This curriculum is simply designed to get the most out of the practitioner. If we teach a student flesh ripping techniques, we better condition the hand to take it. The same goes for the rest of the body. As far as fitness goes, there is ample evidence that the population of North-America is in great need of more Phys Ed. You only need to look at the chubby little kids sitting behind their computers to know that we are lacking in that respect. In fact, the Govts of Canada and the US spend thousands on ad campaigns to alleviate this growing problem. > 2.) Basic requirements: > Are these tests cummulative? If so, is there some purpose to retesting > students over the same material they have already shown competence > with in previous testing? By the time one is testing for 1st BB is it > truely necessary to demonstrate "Etiquette (Yea Eue)" as a criteria > for testing? Is it necessary to perform each technique 23 kicks and > strikes (total 46) 20 times (10 left/10 right)for a total of 920 > repetitions to demonstrate competence? And this is accomplished AFTER > the above mentioned "Phys Ed" test. In each test, I am sure to find some flaws. The next test had better see this flaw fixed. The etiquette part is most assuredly a part of the test, and lacking it means you never get a black belt from me. The reason we do these requirements one right after the other is to have the participant dig wayyyy down deep and still have the drive to keep going. > 3.) Hyung requirements > I am not sure where one learns 20 hyung before making 1st Black Belt. > If remember right, Shudokan (a style I studied in my younger years) > had some 7 to 9 kata or hyung. Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido has 5 hyung and all > are empty-hand. Where did the number 20 come from and is it necessary > to repeat them 4 times for a total of 80 performances? A first degree > BB test in Yon Mu Kwan might require an individual to perform each > hyung 3 times, but even then that would be only if the performance was > solely, and seriously, in question. One learns these hyung at my place, because they form part of the curriculum;) We do them in four directions so the practitioner can keep his or her sense of direction even when dog tired. Each higher dahn has additional material right up to eight dahn. It takes an adult at least four years to get ready for a BB test, a second dahn needs two more years, a third three more years etc. There is lots of time to prepare for the test. > 4.) Ho Shin Sool requirements > Now, we have done an exhaustive Phys Ed and Concussive test as well as > an exhaustive hyung test and the next thing on the schedule is "200 > techniques (25 of which involve weapons - specifically dahn bong and > knife) complete with takedowns". I won't even go into the "acrobatics" > or the breakfall requirements, or the breaking requirements if it > comes to that. Pardon me for saying so but the word "Overkill" is > screaming in my brain. I attended a TKD 4th degree BB test once that > was not this heroic. I guess some might think this IS overkill, but nothing worth while comes easy:) Look, I don't put anyone down for doing it different, and NKMAA does not interfere on how others do their thing as long as it is reasonable by industry standards. I am the way I am, because that is the way I learned my art. GM Pak, in his old days, was as hard nosed as they come. > Every so often we have a discussion on this Net about how people are > cutting corners and Buying certification and licenses from > unmentionable > personalities who are only to willing to sell them. The > question(usually unstated) is "why would someone not do it the "right" > way and test in front of a legitimate teacher or board. I have to tell > you Tim, Rudy, that if someone were to ask me to take a test like this > I would probably look for an easy way out as well. Bruce, I don't think you would have any problems with this. We start out slow, and we gather steam as we go along. Those who are not able to keep up are not tossed aside, and we never quit in our quest to have everyone improve in all areas of martial arts. Our recreational level is quite forgiving, and the KSB test is only for those over age 18 who are in good shape. BTW, I have had senior citizens (myself included) go over the 12 foot wall each year we host our obstacle course. Set the bar high, and you will be surprised how many can do the impossible. > As a History or Science teacher I know that I could overwhelm my High > School students with sheer volume and intentsity of material. The > point, to my way of thinking, however, is to give them attainable > goals that they have a decent chance of winning and still lead normal > lives. (An alternative for the sake of arguement is to look at the > suicide rate in Japan following their academic "Hell Week" testing to > get into the best schools.)And, as I stated before, where do you go > from 1st BB? Is the next test harder yet? And if you are doing this at > 1st BB what will you be requiring for 4th and 5th BB? Our aim is not to discourage people; however, we will push them to greater heights than they ever imagined possible. This is not about one upmanship, it is a sincere desire to excel in all areas of fitness and skill, and no one has ever contemplated suicide because of our standards:) > I know this is going to seem as though I am putting you both on the > spot but I think these are important questions. I have the same axe to > grind > with "traditional TKD teachers" who still make their students do 2 or > 3 hundred kicks in every class. Perhaps a reality sandwich is in > order, yes? > It seems an awfully high bar just to have bragging rights regarding > having tough testing standards. Bruce, the reality is that you can walk into just about any shop these days to find that the person behind the counter knows nothing about his or her wares, and most of them are hard pressed to make change. IMHO that is the result of setting low standards. Our tests are simply a way to make sure that my students are as good as any out there. Sorry for taking so much space, but Bruce always asks a lot of good questions:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 02:24:26 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray writes: > Ummm, I don't think so. From what little I know(and it is), > repetitive strain > injuries tend to arise from HOURS a day, most every day, week in and > week > out of a repetitive motion. Did I mention years in there??? Kicking > a few > minutes a day, three or five days a week is probably very unlikely to > cause > these problems. But I'll admit that it is important to kick properly. > Even > one or a few fullpower improper kicks can cause problems for many. Hello Ray: After seeing just one too many martial art practitioner with bad knees, I decided to go back to school at age 50, in order to learn more about the fitness and kinesiology aspects of training. I tend to agree with you one the repetitive strain syndrome. IMHO, if you teach proper basic skills with lots of repetition and correction, you prevent injury rather than cause it. To this very day, I have a bad elbow from missing a punch and hyper extending the elbow a competition. The punch was close enough for Robert Trias, Chuck Merriman, and Jim Harrison to call it a point, but both my opponent and I knew better. When I told GM Trias that I missed, he asked me if I came to the competition to fight or judge. The lesson I learned there was never to argue with the ref, but it also caused me to carefully scrutinize our kicks and punches for correct biomechanics. It only takes one wrong punch to have a lifetime of hurt. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 8 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Disease Transmission From: Chuck Mattern Date: 04 Mar 2003 05:54:28 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net writes: > If I had to read between the lines, I am guessing that someone who is > asking about such things has an issue not so much with the possibility for > disease transmission as much as having a condition transmitted to THEM. Its > a real concern and responsible people do what they can to minimize the > risk. There are no absolute guarentees that you won't pick-up athletes' > Foot, Jock Itch, or the Plague for that matter. Keep yourself clean and ask > the same of others. FWIW. Without getting into too much detail, I am in the process of forming a dojang targeting an at risk youth element as well as a few others. My goal is to make their lives better, not worse. In that light I am attempting to leave no stone unturned. That's about as far between the lines as I have the time to go right now but in future posts I will attempt to preclude the necessity for going there. Regards, Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- |Chuck Mattern | "People often find it easier to be a result | |camattern@acm.org | of the past than a cause of the future." | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --__--__-- Message: 9 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Concerns about disease transmission From: Chuck Mattern Date: 04 Mar 2003 05:58:25 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye nigma writes: > Hey Chuck, nothing wrong with being concerned. I think > the best thing to do is to get some information on > pathogens, and then determine the possible hazard. To > the best of my knowledge, most pathogens die when > exposed to air. But to be extra careful until you have > solid info, ask the school owner to sanitize the bag. Actually that will be me in a few years. I'm working on setting up a small dojang and am trying to investigate all of the details. As to the research angle, thank you, I'll tackle it from that angel and get a better idea of what I'm likely to be up against. Thanks for the feedback, Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- |Chuck Mattern | "People often find it easier to be a result | |camattern@acm.org | of the past than a cause of the future." | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 08:17:31 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Victor Cushing Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Kinder Gentler Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Klass Berends: "Part of this is in the way and what you learn your students. Learning your students to use excessive and unnecessary force, just doesn't seem right to me. Especially if the problem can be solved in a more peacefull manner." I agree with this,and want to add that the issue then becomes when can a problem be solved with peaceful approaches and when should we use "excessive and unnecessary force." Excessive to what, unnecessary because of what? Let me suggest an answer. Response Must = Threat. While common courtesy makes everyday life easier, being prepared for the worst makes survival more likely. If we are serious about the application of Hapkido we might want to think in terms of what level of threat our students may face. They may be ambushed, trapped by circumstances, have an obligation to protect a family member, or have a professional duty to deal with a confrontation. The options of defusing or using reason in any situation may evaporate in a flash of some one else's anger, rage or criminal intent. Threat Pile 1 = He wants to Kill, Main, Rape you. These responses require the application of some very violent countermeasures (unless you can escape very quickly or foresaw the problem arising and just left). Threat Pile 2 = He is hostile or angry, but not murderous, and needs to be restrained so he won't hurt anyone. These responses move towards control and arrest tactics, joint locks, come alongs, restraints, etc. Threat Pile 3 = Misdemeanor or annoying grabs, et al. These responses deal with escapes and releases. Threat Pile 4 = He is talking, gesturing and building up to physical attack. These responses deal with defusing him and lowering the tension while still being ready to deal with Threat Pile 1, 2, 3 if he acts. If we teach our students to be nice and cooperate with a violent attacker, that is a mistake. They will be violently attacked. If we teach our students to attack with a first strike anyone who argues with them, that is a mistake. We are creating a class of bullies. IMHF teaches Response Must = Threat. Violence when there is an alternative is immoral. Violence when there is no alternative is imperative. If our students do not know when and how to apply violence to survive, then we are failing them. Hapkido then becomes a demonstration art, not a set of survival tactics. Vic Cushing --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: 04 Mar 03 07:49:13 -0600 From: MW To: the_dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] RE>licensing, yeah right Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My thought is that the gov't could probably care less about the quality or capabilities of instructors/schools. I think they found a pocket that hasn't been picked yet and want a piece. michael whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 07:32:56 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_IMVHO_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: ".....Similar question here. 200 or 300 kicks is just a warmup..." I'm not sure that I agree with that. Perhaps you can give me some explanation as to why you would require students to do hundreds of kicks? Do people in other sports perform hundreds of repetitions (per two hour periods)? When pro teams do their start-up camps do they do hundreds of repetitions per two-hour period? After 15 or 20 kicks of a particular type what is it that you think you are accomplishing (other than filling-up class time) when students are required to do the same kick over and over? Perhaps there are students who want to work up to this level of performance, however, to my mind students are coming to class to learn, and would reasonably be expected to do "homework" when they get home. How is it that a teacher does not simply do enough kicks to identify specific short- comings in an individuals form--- correct that form--- and then assign a task for that person to work on in their own time? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 07:56:19 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Inherited_Leadership_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ian: "....As for your thoughts on succession, succession in the strict sense is, in my estimate, not an uncommon thing in Korean, Chinese, or Japanese martial arts traditions......" Thanks for taking the time to provide some insight into the manner in which leadership is passed in your art. It was a little confusing for me to read that the art is a "family art" and that it was required that someone be adopted into the family in order to perpetuate the leadership. This does not sound like an intrinsically Korean tradition as most of what I have found in my research is a pattern of very loose associations by which skills are passed from one generation to the next. Now, if you were speaking of Japanese traditions or some of the traditions of Southern China in the post-Ming period I could probably see a connection. From all that I have read so far, the development of Korean martial science has been a function more of small groups such as "house armies", security agents (such as the warrior-monks around various temples), and guerilla bands such as the "righteous armies" of the Imjin War and later of the Japanese Occupation. The Korean traditions seem to have been passed from one generation to the next more as a plastic/elastic constellation of techniques governed by a code, philosophy or intent, rather than a curriculum whose integrity was maintained and secured by an identified hereditary leader. During the 1800-s there were not a few Japanese commertial colonies often attacked for their more successful marketing by Korean competitors. I wonder if the art that you practice--- despite its Korean name--- could be more closely associated with Japanese traditions rather than Korean? Have you any additional thoughts on the origins of Choson-Do along these lines? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Repetitive injuries To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 07:02:42 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > My own experience of bent legs, extensive TKD training, and long years of > cycling (and perhaps Aikido knee-walking) was worn knee-caps. The doctor at > that time advised me to stay away from martial arts (and other physical > exercise like cycling). I scrupulously followed this until I had put on > weight and became bored and frustrated that my knees were not recovering > faster. I now train again but only kick occasionally to remember how things > used to be. My knees are bad also, but from running, too many miles every day for too many years. But the worse part was that it was on concrete and in poor running shoes. But most Drs. seem to recommend biking. So I did 3,000 miles last biking (road) season. Not a lot for real bikers, but it was a good year for me. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 15 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 07:14:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ".....Similar question here. 200 or 300 kicks is just a warmup..." > > I'm not sure that I agree with that. Perhaps you can give me some > explanation as to why you would require students to do hundreds of kicks? > Do people in other sports perform hundreds of repetitions (per two hour > periods)? When pro teams do their start-up camps do they do hundreds of > repetitions per two-hour period? Yes, of course. How many examples would you like? Football... running, passing, blocking, tackling, etc. Baseball... running, throwing, sliding, catching. Tennis... running, overhead, backhand, forehand, serve, serve, serve. 100s of blocks in a practice. 100s of backhands in a practice. 100s of throws and catches in a practice. > After 15 or 20 kicks of a particular type > what is it that you think you are accomplishing (other than filling-up > class time) when students are required to do the same kick over and over? Well, geez, you don't need to do 400 front kicks with each leg per practice. There are a score or two of different kicks that people will practice. 6 or 10 each, per leg, a dozen or two or three different kicks and you might be starting to warm-up. Then maybe a few doubles and triples and you might be sweating a bit... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest