Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 12:04:01 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #135 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Legal Opinion Found= retreat from potential attack not necessary ? Hmnnnn (Ken McDonough) 2. Bowing to Flags (SEXTONR003@hawaii.rr.com) 3. Fight (SEXTONR003@hawaii.rr.com) 4. IIRC, not all states the same (Ray Terry) 5. Re: Hackworth tapes (Chris LaCava) 6. Shooting yourself in da foot (SEXTONR003@hawaii.rr.com) 7. And another thing= worries about legal stuff ? (Jim McHie Jr.) 8. Hackee Tapes (SEXTONR003@hawaii.rr.com) 9. genesys of poom se (Davide Sorrentino) 10. Re: And another thing= worries about legal stuff ? (Jye nigma) 11. Re: HapKiDo 9th Dan will teach seminar at Beckey, West Virginia: April 26 & 27, 2003 (ramon Navarro) 12. Re: Dr. Covington- What's Up Doc (I did move) (Dr. Daryl Covington) 13. RE: Bar fight (Hay, Pat) 14. Jeong Dojeon's and Gihwa's Texts (fwd) (Ray Terry) 15. Re: Striking First (Chris and Cindy) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 19:04:33 -0800 (PST) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cc: martialscience@topica.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Legal Opinion Found= retreat from potential attack not necessary ? Hmnnnn Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am off my soap box. This is not case law, but I found this on a martial arts site. It is edited and written by a lawyer. See below. Going to bed. Sweet dreams (Patsy Cline ?) Ken McD... Care to comment Dr. C ? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! --__--__-- Message: 2 From: To: Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 17:39:20 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bowing to Flags Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What about the flag from the country of Texas? Personally, I have always found it odd to be required to put my hand on my > heart and bow to a piece of painted cloth.... Randall Sexton www.LaughingHara.com "If I live in Hawaii, where do I vacation?" --__--__-- Message: 3 From: To: Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 17:42:55 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Fight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is why, right before the guy hits you, you jerk your head back with your hand to your face, screaming, "you hit me!" Then strike. Witnesses will see what they thought they saw. <<.. and therefore you initiated the fight. In court, you loose, pay the fine, or go to jail. Next time, with all the time you seemed to have had, perhaps the best thing to do would be to get up and move. Seems someone else in this story had something to prove.>> Randall Sexton www.LaughingHara.com "If I live in Hawaii, where do I vacation?" --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 19:45:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] IIRC, not all states the same Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ..., but I found this on a martial arts site. It is edited and written by > a lawyer. See below. One from your state, talking about your state law? It can make a diff... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Chris LaCava" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 23:04:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hackworth tapes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Even if you don't like him, you have to admit he is one heck of a business/marketing guy. They say "any PR is good PR." Famous... Infamous... who cares, the point is that you have heard of him. He is definitely known (in one way or another). Some may say his Hapkido is crap or have heard stories one way or another and wonder what is the truth. This increased curiosity may very well lead to buying a copy just to see what's the deal. That's some pretty shrewed marketing. Just a rambling observation. Take care. Chris "from CT" LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 6 From: To: Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 18:05:48 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Shooting yourself in da foot Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net snip<> Obviously, you've never seen "Drunken Hapkido." Randall Sexton www.LaughingHara.com "If I live in Hawaii, where do I vacation?" --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jim McHie Jr." To: Subject: [The_Dojang] And another thing= worries about legal stuff ? Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 22:17:22 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As a practicing but non-criminal attorney, I do know a couple of the ins-and-outs of self-defense philosophy, having taking a casual review of it since everyone in my class asks me the legal questions. One very nice grandmother (with a dual black belt in TKD and Hapkido and who teaches self defense at a local battered women's shelter, don't mess with her) asked me once whether, after she had disarmed her knife-wielding attacker and now had the knife, she could stab the guy. The answer, in case anyone was interested, is usually no. If you have disarmed your attacker to the point where they cannot or are not continuing to be a legitimate threat, and you are wielding a deadly weapon, you cannot stab him in the neck. If it's a big guy, you get the knife, and he keeps coming, totally different scenario. Unfortunately, 'it depends', is fairly unhelpful in real life situations. And it varies by state/jurisdiction. btw there are situations where you can strike first as an application of self defense. It occurs when you are in reasonable anticipation of someone about to harm you or another person (defense of others). Depending on the jursidiction you are in there are varying levels of obligations to attempt to retreat in order to qualify for self defense in any situation. I recommend having a criminal lawyer come to the dojang sometime to do a short lecture and question-and-answer with classes. So anyway now that I have identified myself as a liberal hippie with no experience, I will say that is not the situation you should be most worried about, at all. In most situations it's going to be he-said, she-said and if you really are on the defensive it *should* come out. So you're not going to hear a lot of whining by me about lawsuits and lawyers and how crappy the system is. I'll give you all a hint: most of the 'horrible' verdicts you hear about are either made up or you are hearing at best about 1/4 of what actually came out in the case. What I worry about isn't legal at all, it's the kind of 1-in-a-million things you wouldn't wish on anyone. We have a county prosecutor who teaches BJJ at our school. Nice older gentleman, to see him in court you'd never think twice about him. Except he could kill you six ways to Sunday without messing his suit, even a little, at least that's my impression from working with him on occasion and seeing him on the mat. Anyway he talks a lot about the cases he's seen and that have been through the offices he has worked at. Two guys got into it at a bar, nothing major. One guy takes just one swing at the other guy. A good jaw shot, the kind that 1,000 times, at absolute worst, breaks a guy's jaw. *Usually* it's glancing and you just get some sore/loose teeth. Nope, broke the jaw and pushed a fragment and ruptured an artery. The guy was dead before he hit the floor. Some guy with a knife, and over nothing significant, nicks his opponent. Really, when it's all said and done it doesn't look any worse that a bad scratch. Except he got him on the inner thigh. Guy bled to death in 30 seconds. Nobody could have saved him. He has story about 'wrong place, wrong time' fights where that unusual thing happens. It turns out that none of these guys were 'bad' guys. Not the killers, not the vitcims. Just stupid. That's what I worry about most, when we practice the techniques. I think, if I *really* used this on someone, it would or could kill them. And a host of other techniques that certainly could result in death if a shattered bone moves a certain way or I throw them onto pavement and they crack their skull open, especially on a curb or they happen to fall on a broken bottle. I think about that as I'm working with my partner. And not because someone was coming to kill me, but because some guy lost his job and he gets a little carried away at a bar or a pool hall. Or he got divorced, or found out his kid was on drugs, or he was having a bad day, or *I* was having a bad day. And the technique can be as plain-vanilla as a straight punch, much less the more devestating techniques many of us know. That's one of the big reasons I chose Hapkido in the first place, I did a lot of research. It gives me the option, if I can ever be practiced enough or good enough, to have alternatives. I don't think too much about being sued, or even going to jail. I think about how bad I'd feel if it was my 1-in-1,000 punch that killed a guy before he hit the floor. Even if he was coming at me, that would still eat at me forever I think. He'd probably have a wife and kids, and probably wouldn't be a career criminal or lifetime loser. He'd probably be just this guy, and I'd have killed him. I think that's one of my goals as a martial artist, to allow me to have options. I'd rather have a bruised ego than kill anyone, even if I was in the right and it was totally self defense. I think any responsible martial arts instructor emphasizes and teaches alternate conflict resolution on a regular basis. How to diffuse a situation before it escalates, if possible. ANyway this has just opened up a whole flow of stuff. Sorry for the length. Jim McHie Jr. Student http://www.horizonmartialarts-wellness.com/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.461 / Virus Database: 260 - Release Date: 3/10/2003 --__--__-- Message: 8 From: To: Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 18:08:32 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hackee Tapes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Let's all chip in a dollar, buy one and have Master Mac post it for us! -- __--__-- Randall Sexton www.LaughingHara.com "If I live in Hawaii, where do I vacation?" --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Davide Sorrentino" To: Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 14:00:18 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] genesys of poom se Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi to all! I'm looking for notices about the genesys of Poom se (taegeuk, palgwe, koryo, etc...), by K.T.A. in the late ' 60 and the first ' 70. Thank you very much!!! Davide Sorrentino --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 05:22:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] And another thing= worries about legal stuff ? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My father once asked if he caught someone trying to break into his car could he shoot them. The police officier simply said, well, in that scenario we can't even shoot them so you KNOW you can't shoot them; however you can ruff him up and say you got into a scuffle. So when I'm thinking about the self defense against a knife welding attacker, I'd say make them look like they fought with a bear. *could you imagine seeing a grandmother about 80 years old standing over some guy who tried you rob her, with his face bloody, clothes torn, because she was a master of the martial arts? lol __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 05:33:47 -0800 (PST) From: ramon Navarro To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: HapKiDo 9th Dan will teach seminar at Beckey, West Virginia: April 26 & 27, 2003 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi you all and be blessed. I am Ramon Navarro, HapKiDo SabomNim/Teacher and will let you all know that there will be a Seminar on April 26 & 27, 2003 in Becky, West Virginia, US Hosted by Master : Roy King. This Seminar will be given by Grand Master Park, SongIL 9th Dan and a direct student to Grand Master Ji, HanJae 10th Dan and considered the father os modern HapKiDo and heads the SinMoo HapKiDo and is president to the new World HapKiDo Organisation. This seminar will have a cost of $150.00 per person and can write Master Roy King at : roy_king25801@yahoo.com to separate your place for this activity or for more information. HAP Ramon Navarro HapKiDo SabomNim SongMooKwan HapKiDo PS/ In this attatchment you can see grand master Park, SongIL 9th Dan with his teacher Grand Master Ji, HanJae 10th Dan (seated) at Mr. Park' Dogang : The SongMooKwan HapKiDo Panama Headquarters on October 1996 _____________________________________________________________ Get a web-based email for life now ---> http://mail.hapkidokr.org _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/pjpeg which had a name of Cnegros3.jpg] --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 07:29:55 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Dr. Covington- What's Up Doc (I did move) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir, There is no need for a personal attack, or a questioning of my abilities. FYI, I have practiced HKD for 26 years (6th Dan), and also hold the 3rd Dan in Judo from the Kodokan, and a 3rd in TKD under Master Rhee. I did not make any personal attacks on your character. As for the "real world", I have twice been to war for this country, and formally made a living with a certian drug erradication task force, I've seen plenty of reality friend. There was no need for your attempt at defamation of my character or abilities. As for competition abilities, I have twice one the world championships in self defence, 36-0 as a light heavyweight in Muay Thai, and ws the 2000 Southern States National NHB Champion. These were of course before I came to the reality that these "competitions" were filling my house with useless trophies, and time could be better spent using these arts to influence the lives of others. My point was, getting up and moving worked the first time, why not just leave when the guy was coming the second time. The fight didn't accomplish much, the guys still wanted to cause trouble when it was over. The point is, never use voilence unless absolutely necessary. The other was legal advice. Regardless of how menicing or threating one's words are, if you throw the first blow, you're in trouble in court these days. Sad but true. Trust me, I know this from past experiences I will not elaborate on at this time. As for your comments about being liberal. I happen to be a .45 toting, Republican Voting, Former U.S. Army Paratrooper. I realize this is not an "ideal" world, and the "Shaolin Monk" approach doesn't always work, but based on the elapsed time in your story, it seems you could have just left the place and avoided confrontation all together. I share this as advice to those in the DOJANG list here. Initating contact based on a civil dispute will place you at the wrong end of the law. For the Hapkidoist, this may be a good example of controling vs. striking if the situation elevates to blows. No offence meant from the advice or assesment of the story, but next time, try not to be so quick to jump to personal insults. What ever happened to courtesy, modesty, and self-control in the life of the martial artists. daryl --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Hay, Pat" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 13:09:14 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Bar fight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Fights are unfortunate and so is war and crime and poverty, etc. The forces of evil never rest. Based on Ken's story I would not categorize him as a saint, but he was just in his actions. Two hundred and seven years ago people fought for freedom and the US of A was born. A person should be free to frequent a bar or restaurant or any other public place without giving up ones freedoms. Slime balls should not be allowed to rule the world. If our only action is turn the other cheek, then they will. Good people and martial artists of the world unite. Do not let the gang bangers, rapist, murders, dirtballs control the world. We need to be "Soldiers of Freedom". Remember Freedom is not Free! Patrick Hay --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 11:23:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Jeong Dojeon's and Gihwa's Texts (fwd) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarded message: From: Charles Muller Subject: Web Publication of Texts of Korean Confucian-Buddhist Debate I have been working for a number of years with the two major texts from the respective sides of the Neo-Confucian Buddhist confrontation in the late Goryeo/early Joseon: Jeong Dojeon's _Array of Critiques Against Buddhism_ (_Bulssi japbyeon_) and Gihwa's _Exposition of the Correct_ (_Hyeonjeong non_). I have now completed annotated translations of these texts, and published them on the web, along with an introductory article at: http://www.acmuller.net/jeong-gihwa/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Abstract The long confrontation between Neo-Confucianism and Buddhism, which has its earliest origins in the tracts of the Tang dynasty scholar Hanyu (768-824), reached its culmination in Korea during the end of Goryeo and beginning of the Joseon dynasties in the writings of Jeong Dojeon (1342-1398) and Gihwa (1376-1433). Jeong, a well-known political figure and Neo-Confucian ideologue, wrote, during the course of his career, a number of essays which were critical of Buddhism. It was in his final treatise however (the _Bulssi japbyeon_; "Array of Critiques of Buddhism") that he arranged all of the complaints against Buddhism that had been leveled through Hanyu, the Cheng brothers, and Zhuxi into one final summary argument against the Seon Buddhist tradition. Along with the arguments of these earlier Neo-Confucian thinkers, which were comprised largely of criticisms of Song Chan nihilism and antinomianism, he included his own censure of decadent practices of the current Goryeo Buddhist _sangha_. Although in China the Neo-Confucian condemnations of Buddhism had gone largely unanswered, this was not to be the case in Korea. The monk Gihwa, who was the leading figure of the Buddhist _sangha_ at the outset of the Joseon, and who was also originally a Confucian scholar of considerable accomplishment, felt compelled to answer the critiques that had been summarized in Jeong's work. He did so in a treatise entitled the _Hyeonjeong non_ ("Exposition of the Correct"), a work that presents a largely conciliatory response, but which nonetheless takes the Confucians to task for the disparity between what is said in their classical texts, and what they actually do in practice. Both treatises are here translated in full in HTML format (generated from TEI2 XML source documents), with the original classical Chinese text. For purposes of background introduction on the authors of the two treatises, along with an outline of the arguments made by each side, a paper (based on a 2002 presentation at the AAR) is attached. to the arguments of both treatises. Chuck --------------------------- Charles Muller Faculty of Humanities, Toyo Gakuen University Digital Dictionary of Buddhism and CJKV-English Dictionary [http://www.acmuller.net] H-Buddhism List Editor [http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~buddhism/] --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 14:55:50 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Chris and Cindy Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Striking First Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >IANAL (I am not a lawyer, for you non-geek types), but >IIRC one can strike first and still have the law >recognize it as self-defense, provided the usual >self-defense criteria are satisfied. > >Unfortunately, I can't go find a trustworthy reference >since the only MA-and-law book that I own isn't that >great. Anyone? > >===== >Grant D. Watson, I had a state trooper (who is also a BB in TKD) do an introduction seminar on self-defense for me during my very first "Women's Self-Defense" class that I was teaching. I asked this exact question and his response was... It is perfectly legal to be the first to strike if the threat of violence from your attacker is real. But, proving it in a court of law is an entirely different issue. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest