Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 03:01:49 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #137 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Fighting_Back_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Checking_Stats?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. RE: Hackworth Tapes (Michael Rowe) 4. RE: Capoeira (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 09:01:24 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Fighting_Back_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Pat: "......I am disturbed by the pattern of fear over the issue of confronting aggressors. We have to be fearful of the law, of injuring our attackers? Why? I am sure these should be considered if you plan to instigate something, but in the defense of yourself or others. Why? ....." Sorry, Pat, but I am afraid this is one of those things you will just have to learn to live with. Human beings have always been conflicted when one or more planes of their existence meet at the same point in time and space. Our bodies, minds, feelings and spirits all operate under similar but not identical laws and the problems that come up season every day of our lives until we die. Just look what happens when a guy finally meets "Ms Right". Is this a hormone-driven physical event, a storm or emotions, intellectual attraction or a spiritual melding of soulmates? Fighting--- even in self- defense-- is the same thing with one persons' "self-defense" being another persons' "gratuitous violence". Look how conflicted the Koreans, themselves, were with the idea of martial spirit in a Neo-Confucian culture. And how about the intellectual two-step that allowed Buddhist monks to bear arms against their fellow man. To tell you the truth I am right there with you in about all that you wrote, but I would use the judiciary as a reason not to protect oneself. Judges and Laws are only here to give us an opportunity for justice; they do not guarentee that justice is what you will get. Personally I see the judicial activities after a conflict as the micro equivalent of "winning the peace" after "winning the war". Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 09:09:12 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Checking_Stats?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Daryl: ".....Here in our state a high school student's family was sued for 150,000 dollars because their kid threw a punch to another kid during a football game, with full pads on. Guess what, that family is 150,000 poorer now, and the laywer about 45,000.00 to the good. Sad world we live in isn't it......" I am wondering as I read your post if there is any way to double-check the stats on experiences like this. I'm not saying that such things don't happen. What I am wondering is how OFTEN they happen. It sorta reminds me of those often quoted stats about "90% of fights wind-up on the ground" and "50% of all marriages end in divorce". I am wondering if there are any lawyers on the Net who can recommend a resource where people can actually know for sure just how often unprovoked aggression in the street becomes a legal action against the original victim for defending themselves. Anybody? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 10:07:50 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Hackworth Tapes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> I know that this was written in jest (I can read emotion-cons). However, you could at least spell Pellegrini's name correctly when you poke fun. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 17:21:09 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Capoeira Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Hmmmmmm...how can I put this in a politically correct manner? If I were pressed (and feeling mighty liberal), I would admit that there are elements of Capoeira that have definite fighting applications. A kick is a kick, and if it lands at the right time with the right amount of power it will put someone down. Along those lines, Capoeira does have some kicking applications that are practical. Not everything in Capoeira consists of cartwheels and inverted handstand kicks. As far as punching and grappling, I don't believe it to have anything extensive or effective (from what I have seen). Now having said that, there's talk of "Capoeira Angola", and how it's more combative than the typical stuff they parade out for the tourists in Brazil. Maybe, maybe not. I've seen some of Dennis Newsome's Capoeira Angola, and it looks to be basically along the same lines as the tourist stuff. The "intent" may be a little more combative, and they tend to play it on a lower line (lots of sweeps as opposed to lots of kicks)...but the Jinga and the spinning and the music is all still there. Now I'll throw this little tidbit out there for popular consumption, and people can take it for what it's worth. Since 1995, some folks have been trying to get some mileage out of the fact that Mestre Hulk cold-cocked Amaury Bitteti in a NHB fight. When I say "cold-cocked", I don't mean Hulk mesmerized him with the Jinga, and then smacked him with a cartwheel kick. It was more like a big right hand. Of course, the Capoeria community ignores the fact that Hulk doesn't do a lot of Capoeira in the ring (unless you get loose with the definitions), and it's conveniently forgotten that he's obviously cross-trained in Luta Livre...they just like to drum home the fact that here's a "Capoeria guy" that can last five minutes in the cage, and has knocked the fool out of one of BJJ's world champs. So, I love Capoeira for what it is. A mock combat set to music that emphasizes the development and expression of highly stylized movements that have their origins in martial material. Where I differ in opinion with most is the nature and context of the source material. The popular version is that Brazilian slaves hid the super-warrior techniques of their Angolan forefathers within the cultural vehicles of music and dance. Meanwhile, they were ever ready to dispatch an enemy (or slave master) with a quick leg sweep, and deadly slash from a straight razor (held between the toes, no less). My take on it (and here's where I play amateur anthropologist) is that the source arts most likley consisted of mock combats used as rites of passage, or as means to settle social/political issues within the tribe. They probably had very little to do with real combat on an inter-personal or inter-tribal basis. When it comes to the real deal, I think Africans were just as smart as any other corner of the gene pool, and they probably preferred the club and the spear over the hand and the foot. Taken in piecemeal, there's some good stuff there. Taken as a whole, Capoeira is one of the most inefficient means by which to teach a person how to fight. Do the Jinga in a fight...get KTFO'ed. Sorry, my honest opinion. I believe it to be mock combat through dance. Nothing more...nothing less. But hey, dancing beats the hell out of fighting any day of the week. Agreed? I saw an article recently where a legitimate Capoeria school has now been established in Korea. It would be interesting to come back 50 to 100 years from now and see what comes from a possible infusion of Afro-Brazilian kicking methods with the traditional methods from that corner of the globe. Upward and onward... Craig "I Choose Checkers Over Jinga" Stovall --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest