Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:23:01 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #138 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Ancient Korean Martial Arts (Burdick, Dakin R) 2. RE: Capoeira (Bob Yu) 3. Hackworth Tapes (Dennis McHenry) 4. RE: Ken's fight (Hay, Pat) 5. Nice Discussion (Wilson, Byron) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Hwa_Rang_Do_Question?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. True but am I black and blue ? (Ken McDonough) 8. Western Conference of AAS, October 9-11, 2003 (fwd) (Ray Terry) 9. Re: Re:Hwa_Rang_Do_Question (Jye nigma) 10. Before you fight..... (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:11:31 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Ancient Korean Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray posted some stuff from Korean Kido Association website. It was a mix of truth and... um.... non-truth?: During the 36 years of the Japanese occupation of Korea, practically the life span of a whole generation lost "its freedom and identity. The Japanese authorities tried to completely eliminate Korean thought, Korean cultural arts, and the very foundation of Korean traditional Martial Arts, which had been preserved in Korea for thousands of years." Yep. I think we can all agree with that. We could even backdate that occupation to the 1890s, since the Japanese kept the King bottled up in his palace for a while (remember when he fled to the American embassy and we turned him away? Not our best moment). They even had Queen Min killed (BEFORE the official 1910 occupation). But then they go on... "Ironically, it was the Japanese who had, in the past, brought Korean traditional Martial Arts into their own nation and then modified those arts to suit the Japanese culture. Then in this century, the Japanese tried to assert that Korean Martial Arts originated in Japan. In fact, today's Karate, Kendo, and Aikido were probably influenced by the traditional Korean Martial Art tradition." This is just pure hokum, just like the Korean encyclopedias that claim that yudo (Judo in Japanese) was founded in Korea 2000 years ago. What happened to Dr. Kano? The fact seems to be that Koreans were the most Confucian people in the area, and Confucians generally do not favor martial arts (except archery). The only good fighters they had (the t'aekkyeon guys) were viewed as thugs, both by themselves (see Duk-Ki Song) and by normal citizens. But the Kido folks go on... "After the Korean liberation from Japan (August 15, 1945), Korean Martial Arts (i.e. "moo-yae" or "moo-sool") spread rapidly throughout the country. Classical Korean Martial Art techniques, which had been hidden, one by one surfaced and became publicly known." Again, very doubtful. Ki Hwang tried to form his hwasudo but complained that everyone only wanted Japanese martial arts in the late 1940s. And why not? Korea had been under Japanese rule for two generations and a lot of Koreans didn't even know their own language any more. They knew Japanese culture, and they knew the Japanese had kicked butt for sometime, so that is what they wanted to do too. T'aekkyeon didn't make a comeback until the late 1950s, and all of those "ancient Korean martial arts" like Hwarangdo and Kuksulwon showed up just a little bit later. Why not right after the end of the war? I would love to see some evidence for this jingoistic Korean history. And Ray, shame on you for putting this stuff up without a warning to the newbies. If the replies to this post follow their due course, I will now be accused of being a Japanese sympathizer. Sorry, but not true. I do martial arts from China, Korea, Japan, the Philippines and elsewhere, but I happen to be an American. Since the Japanese vivisected American fliers in WWII, I tend to view their claims with equal skepticism. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Bob Yu" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:27:22 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Capoeira Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Capoeira was never an instructional art; it was a game that was played by descendents of slaves who were experts in fighting in Brazil. In fact, it was a game that had a heavy religious connotation, meaning that many of the symbols and rituals and movements had meanings under Candomble, a form of Voodoo. A cartwheel was not just a cartwheel in the old Capoeira. Cartwheels had a practial fighting purpose AND a religious purpose. Capoeira Angola is purported to preserve these traditional rituals associated with each movement, which is why angoleiras play low on the ground, from where the players were supposed to draw strength. Capoeira is all about deception and feints; therefore, nothing is obvious. There are tons of grappling and arm techniques, but none of them are explicitly used for many reasons in the game. Of course, during a real fight, anything goes, including knives, which is why there is a "jogo de fakar", game of knife. One reason is that using punches is easy, and that makes the game uninteresting. After all, anybody can throw a punch and knock somebody down. The point is to take somebody down using a more difficult technique such as a perfectly timed sweeps. Luta livre tradition was well alive way before the advent of Jiujitsu fighters. In fact the founder of Capoeira Regional, mestre Bimba, was renowned for his very prouwess in the matches. Many of Capoeira Regional moves were designed to counter Jiujitsu throws, with the idea that capoeiristas never land on their back when thrown. >that the source arts most likley consisted of mock combats used as rites of >passage, or as means to settle social/political issues within the tribe. Exactly. But Capoeira should be viewed like Wushu - it covers a vast range of purposes. Capoeira in Bahia (Northern Brazil) is very different from the one in South. >They probably had very little to do with real combat on an inter-personal >or >inter-tribal basis. When it comes to the real deal, I think Africans were >just as smart as any other corner of the gene pool, and they probably >preferred the club and the spear over the hand and the foot. Yes. Capoeira was not a martial art. TKD and Karate were originally martial arts, used by bodyguards and armies. >Taken in piecemeal, there's some good stuff there. Taken as a whole, >Capoeira is one of the most inefficient means by which to teach a person >how >to fight. Do the Jinga in a fight...get KTFO'ed. Sorry, my honest >opinion. >I believe it to be mock combat through dance. Nothing more...nothing less. >But hey, dancing beats the hell out of fighting any day of the week. >Agreed? Now I agree that Capoeira is inefficient in some sense, but there is a very good reason behind it. Suffice it to say that in the ring, I use boxe-francaise, but out in the street, I use Capoeira mentality. In any case, Capoeira was not an art to be used for teaching, but a game that people played. Just as TKD person does not do 3 step sparring when fighting, Capoeira people do not perform jingas when fighting either. TKD people do not put on body shields on the street. Of course, I am not saying that this kind of training and sparring does not have its faults and promotes bad habits; all I am saying is that this is a universal problem inherent in all arts (such as Escrima - how do you train somebody to fight with a real knife?), and what a lot of people consider inefficient in Capoeira is something that I consider to be one of the most valuable training tools out there. Of course, I did not figure this out - my instructor did, and were it not for his careful teaching, I would defnitely be doing something stupid with Capoeira. Bob Yu _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:22:30 GMT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Dennis McHenry Subject: [The_Dojang] Hackworth Tapes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Michael, <> Yes sir, you are correct. Sorry - I did even look it up at his web site, and still screwed it up... my bad. Master Dennis P. McHenry Houston, Texas USA E-Mail: D.McHenry@juno.com http://McHenry.homeip.net/TangSooDo TangSooDo Director, USKMAF ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Hay, Pat" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:02:03 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Ken's fight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ken's story must have nicked an exposed nerve or something because I am usually just a lurker on this forum. I feel the need to defend Ken in his actions. Ken seems like a nice guy with a less than subdued personality. Should Ken have to stay home or hide in a corner if he decides to go out. Why does the jerk that crosses the line get a free pass. In the aftermath of the confrontation Ken was second guessing his actions. I propose that your instincts may have been right on the mark. You would be surprised how often instincts pick up the proper signals. I rarely frequent bars nowadays, partly because of the increased risk of stupidity happening, and because I do not like drinking all that much anymore. Despite those considerations; I would like to feel free to meet a good friend for a cool one or cut a rug with my wife on occasion without having some asshole feeding me a shit sandwich. A 22 year old kid from my Dojo tried the retreat method last year about this time. As he was leaving the place his bad guy hit him from behind with a bottle. The side of this kids face was cut open pretty bad, he will be scarred for life. What if that bottle would have cut his jugular (it was very close). He filed charges against the guy; but nothing came of that as far as I know. Too many times good people get hurt or killed. From my own personal experience and from the things I have heard, it seems like the good guys get the short end (in the morgue/hospital/court) more often than not. I stand behind you Ken 100%. Consider and analyze what took place. But don't mentally beat yourself up over this. The use of force IS a serious matter. Use it judiciously; but definitely use it when required without hesitation. Ken, If I ever run into you in the real world I will buy you a beer. You can cover my back and I'll cover yours. Patrick Hay 2 Dan TKD --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:11:18 -0500 From: "Wilson, Byron" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Nice Discussion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To Mr. Mchie: I rarely use the words "well reasoned" and "attorney" in the same sentence but I appreciated your opinion. Nicely presented and succinct. Does non-criminal attorney separate you from the attorneys who are criminal? To all: Here I sit, typing poorly with my right radius and ulna pinned together with titanium. I discovered two Olympic style TKD fighters at the recent Battle of Columbus/Arnold Schwarznegger Classic that were younger, faster, and just plain better than me. Fortunately, my guard worked. He only broke my arm instead of my ribs. I actually paid to do this. Big fun, though. TKD Student Byron C. Wilson Byron Wilson [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of image001.jpg] --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:53:55 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Hwa_Rang_Do_Question?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: There was quite a series of exchanges some time back regarding GM Lees' interview in BLACK BELT Magazine and the historical line he had often espoused in the past. No sense in re-processing all that all over again, I suppose. However, I was wondering if anyone else had read the open-letter published by Bob Duggan on the Internet. I am thinking, epecially in light of the recent historical item published by Ray here on the DD, that maybe between the two items we can get a clearer picture of the ego conflicts that may have shaped the earlier years of the Hapkido arts. Comments anyone? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:22:09 -0800 (PST) From: Ken McDonough To: MartialScience@topica.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] True but am I black and blue ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A poster noted this Response: Yes, I have the tape on how to avoid a sucker punch. I also have some Tony Blauer stuff, Professor James stuff (Vee Arnis Jitsu), Kelly Worden stuff, and a smattering of other stuff...A lot of Stuff ! In this case, I chose the Professor James virtual reality segment wherein he talks about walking away. He also discusses the fact that sometimes you will not be allowed to walk away. In that case, don't be a Thinker...be a Stinker ! So, I decided that option, and in this case it worked. Now for all that hand wringing out there. I am comfortably sitting in my home writing this and sipping on a nice Crown Royale and 7 Up. The only thing I suffered that night was three hairs that had to be combed back. I have not received any calls from the legal beavers and my body is untouched. Hmnnn, looks like I came out allright this time. I think I will drink to that. Oh, Dr. C-- please don't tell me about the terrors of drinking. I just had my liver checked ! Peace....out... Big Ken --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:46:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Western Conference of AAS, October 9-11, 2003 (fwd) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarded message: Dear Colleagues, I am contacting Korean specialists to draw attention to the annual meeting of the Western Conference of the Association for Asian Studies (WCAAS), which will be hosted by Arizona State University from October 9th to 11th. As the conference chair and a Koreanist, I would like to boost the number of presentations about Korea. As you know, Korea panels have not been as well represented as we would like, and this has been particularly true in AAS regional conferences. I am hoping that there will be many more papers on Korea at the 2003 WCAAS so that Korean studies as a field will be well represented. Toward this end, I would like to ask you to consider presenting a paper or organizing a panel and/or encourage your graduate students to do so. For graduate students, we may be able to offer some small travel grants on a competitive basis. More detailed information about this conference, including the "call for papers" and proposal forms, is available at our website, . Proposals are due by June 15, 2003. I would greatly appreciate it if you would consider presenting a paper and spreading the word about the conference to your colleagues and students. Thanks much for your attention. Regards, Hyaeweol Choi Associate Professor of Korean Studies & Conference Chair, WCAAS 2003 Dept. of Languages & Literatures Arizona State University Tempe, AZ 85287-0202 --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:48:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:Hwa_Rang_Do_Question To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Bruce, I know Bob duggan and we had several chats about the Lee brothers and Hwarangdo. Mr. Duggan actually spoke to many masters in Korea about the Lee brothers and they are very well known, and famous martial artist. The history of hwarang-do's lineage is very suspect. Also, it should be noted that the Lee brothers studied hapkido, and were a affiliated with kuk sool won before launching hwarangdo....so I believe that hwarang-do is nothing more than the Lee brother's creation and their verison of kuk sool won and hapkido. Jye --- bsims@midwesthapkido.com wrote: > Dear Folks: > > There was quite a series of exchanges some time back > regarding GM Lees' > interview in BLACK BELT Magazine and the historical > line he had often > espoused in the past. No sense in re-processing all > that all over again, I > suppose. However, I was wondering if anyone else had > read the open-letter > published by Bob Duggan on the Internet. I am > thinking, epecially in light > of the recent historical item published by Ray here > on the DD, that maybe > between the two items we can get a clearer picture > of the ego conflicts > that may have shaped the earlier years of the > Hapkido arts. Comments > anyone? > > Best Wishes, > > Bruce > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:55:26 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Before you fight..... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just want to share a story with you. A couple of nights ago I got a call from my sister. A guy I knew as a child had an argument with a guy who had blocked him in his apartment complex. So my friend got out and asked the guy to move, and witnesses say they atarted arguing and my friend tried to walk away. He was shot and killed. He was only 23. The thing to note is that tomarrow is not promised, and a true martial artist is one who is on a journey to self mastery through self discovery, and part of this journey is learning how to handle others through handling yourself properly. A martial artist will attempt to difuse a tense situation first with intellect, then with peace, and then only as a last resort through violence...and when violence is inevitable, a martial artist will know which level of violence to use: hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill, and Kill when there is no way out. Jye I've seen too many deaths not to appreciate life! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest