Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 19:06:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #140 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Who_did_what.....?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 2. Re: Nice Discussion (foxdragon@cuttingedge.net) 3. Re: What would you do? (foxdragon@cuttingedge.net) 4. Fighting against the Mentally Retarded (Wilson, Byron) 5. Hwarangdo question (Burdick, Dakin R) 6. Re:_Kuk_Sool (Ray Terry) 7. Re: Crown (Michael Whalen) 8. Self Protection and Mental Handicaps (bob smith) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Something__to_think_about?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 10. Naihanchi Redux? (Donnelly, Eamonn) 11. fighting the mentally challenged/ill (tntcombatives@attbi.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:11:24 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Who_did_what.....?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dakin: ".....If the replies to this post follow their due course, I will now be accused of being a Japanese sympathizer. ....." No, I don't think I will be laying THAT on you. I DO think that it would be more fair to have the Koreans take responsibility for their part in their own demise than simply blame it all on the Japanese. The Korean people are survivors of the First Rank, but imagine how great they could have been if they had figured out some way to pull together, rather than against each other, for the last 1000 years. Yes, what the Japanese did to Korea was horrific, but the Japanese didn't do it by themselves. And if it comes to discussing hokum its important to remember that a lot of that drivel came courtesy of Korean individuals who knew better--- or should have known better---- but willfully misrepresented things anyhow. It is for no small reason that I repeatedly encourage KMA practitioners to do something more than kick a bodybag or do their hyung. Korean history as represented by the bit and pieces that folks get from their Sabunim has little to do with how things really went down, and its part of our responsibility as practitioners to give the next generation something closer to the truth. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 05:47:35 -0600 From: foxdragon@cuttingedge.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Nice Discussion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Message: 5 >Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:11:18 -0500 >From: "Wilson, Byron" >To all: Here I sit, typing poorly with my right radius and ulna >pinned together with titanium. I discovered two Olympic style TKD >fighters at the recent Battle of Columbus/Arnold Schwarznegger Classic >that were younger, faster, and just plain better than me. Fortunately, >my guard worked. He only broke my arm instead of my ribs. I actually >paid to do this. Big fun, though. ??????!!!!! How is getting hurt worth it and fun? Does Schwarznegger pay for your medical expenses? I never saw the reason to fight for trophies and this confirms my belief that we are learning martial arts for the wrong reasons. Donna TKD Student Byron C. Wilson --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 06:01:41 -0600 From: foxdragon@cuttingedge.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: What would you do? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:31:55 -0800 (PST) > From: Jye nigma > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] From Another Group....What would you do? > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > My biggest fear was being attacked by a mentally > challenged person. Last > Friday I met that fear in the school bathroom. My > friend was washing his > hands in the sink while a boy from the special ed > class was brushing his > teeth. The boy spat on my friend's hands, which I > found to be pretty > disgusting. I looked at my friend and we both just > figured 'whatever' and > were about to leave when the boy started splashing > water at us - > repetitively. I told him to stop and then what do you > know, he comes at me > swinging his fists. Despite his mental disability the > boy was pretty large > and I didn't want to get caught by a wild swing. > > At the same time I didn't want to hit the kid. I held > him away with an open > palm and backed up towards the door. He kept coming > at me swinging his > fists and I was just wondering what I could do. I > faked my front leg at him > and that froze him long enough for me and my friend to > get the hell out of > there. That was one of the weirdest moments of my > life. I'm surprised that > the kids from the special ed class aren't accompanied > to the bathroom. If > someone who's mentally disabled attacks you, do you > have the right to defend > yourself? Is it morally correct to fight back? I've > been contemplating > this ever since it happened. > > Thomas A mentally disabled person is a child no matter how big they are. They aren't happy and smiling all the time. They have emotions and feelings like the rest of us. There are some that can get pretty violent on occasion too; mostly to do with their medication needing adjusting. You have the right to subdue the person, but not to fight him. The best defense here would be to get some space between you and get some help to subdue them. They respond pretty much to authority. Donna --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 08:38:08 -0500 From: "Wilson, Byron" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Fighting against the Mentally Retarded Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thomas wrote: "My biggest fear was being attacked by a mentally challenged person." I am the father of two boys 12 and 9. The 12 year old is a 1st Poom Black and is also studying Kum Do. He has the ability and the temperament to use it appropriately, even with a sub 90 I.Q. That makes him clinically "mentally challenged", developmentally delayed" or whatever the latest sympathy term that is in vogue. On the other hand, my 9 year old is socially maladjusted. He cannot control his moods or temper unless precisely medicated. I would never train him in the effective use of a weapon, including his body. Thomas, I think you and your friend should be commended for the manner in which you handled the incident. Like the bar fights and other encounters described on this site, discretion and maturity are paramount. If you are in high school, you have more than I have seen in young men your age. My only suggestion is that you should have reported that person to the principal or other authority. Mainstreaming of the special ed is nice but, not at the risk of hurting "normal" kids. Let's be clear. The folks out there struggling with retardation or behavioral problems can hurt you just as surely as an idiot of somewhat higher I.Q. that is intoxicated and induces his own disability. If my son became aggressive and tried to hurt another, I would want him stopped as mercifully as possible...but STOPPED, even if that meant physical harm. Sympathy for the less fortunate is a grace given by God. It should be well exercised. However, so is sound judgment. If your attacker cannot exercise it, then you should for the both of you. You must ultimately answer to God and your conscience. IMO, your conscience should be clear and your instructor/parents proud. You handled the situation like a man. Byron Wilson TKD student [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of image001.jpg] --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 08:31:42 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Hwarangdo question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: >...GM Lees' interview .... Bob Duggan..... maybe between the two items we can get a clearer picture of the ego conflicts that may have shaped the earlier years of the Hapkido arts. Comments anyone? Bruce, that was the sweetest and most innocent troll I've seen in a while! :) Personally I think there's plenty in the archives that people can read about that. It was great that GM Lee gave out all that information, but really, unless someone turns up new information from the 1960s, it is going to be very hard to figure out the truth. Thanks to Jye for weighing in though! Take care, Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 06:20:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:_Kuk_Sool Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Thanks for the response. I had heard that GM Lee had studied Hapkido, but > was not aware that he had studied Kuk Sool as well. I thought he studied Yawara/Hapkido from Gm Choi, but doesn't he well predate the creation of Kuk Sool Won and Kuk Sool HKD? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:52:06 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Crown Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Ken, Why'd you go and ruin that Crown? Don't you know that 7-up will rot your teeth! michael whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "bob smith" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:56:59 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Self Protection and Mental Handicaps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Is it right to defend yourself? Yes I believe in all circumstances an individual has the right to defend himself. It is always advisable to walk or run away if you can though. If the attacker is metally handicapped you still have the right and duty to protect yourself, family, friends, etc. My wife (also into TKD) is a special education teacher at a Chicago Suburban high school. Her students range in age from 14-21. The class is comprised of everything from genetic problems to birth induced brain injuries. Some of her students are large and occasionly violent. A student poked an aid with a butter knife this week in the back. The students are human and experince anger, frustration and rage like all of us! They may or may not have the capablities to understand their actions. Many are taking medications to control outburst. I also know some medications actually increase violent behavior. You did the best you could considering the circumstances. You should do so again if confronted (as should we all). However, that student should be reported first to the teacher, then the Principal. He sounds like he may need to be medicated and watched. Be safe all. Bob Smith The TKD Smith Family _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:47:46 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Something__to_think_about?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Thomas: "......I'm surprised that the kids from the special ed class aren't accompanied to the bathroom. If someone who's mentally disabled attacks you, do you have the right to defend yourself? Is it morally correct to fight back? I've been contemplating this ever since it happened......." In this era of "political correctness" I suppose you would run into a whole raft of s*** trying to explain why you clocked some kid with a personality disorder or cognitive disability. All the same you have every right in the World to protect your space and your person. The key point I have found is making sure that you DO NO MORE THAN take care of yourself. This is where the idea of having the response fit the circumstances becomes VERY important. You did right to back-off out of the area. Unless you are empowered to subdue and restrain there is a very good chance someone might try to make a case for your being over-zealous. There did not appear to be anyone less able than yourself at risk, you got away without damage and so did the handicapped person. Sounds like a case of good judgement producing a win-win-win situation. A follow-up to the director of that kids' program is probably all the farther you would need to take it. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Donnelly, Eamonn" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:55:25 -0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Naihanchi Redux? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Mac, Snip "I do both. For those who know all 3, I like to have them practice it as one single form. In fact, I required Mindy to perform it as one hyung during her 3rd Dan test. I believe Funakoshi loved doing it as one form and called it Naihanchi-O. For lack of a better term, that's what I call it when I perform it as such." We also perform the three Naihanchi as one continuous form, on completion of the first form we pivot 180 degrees to face the opposite way and go straight into the first move of the second form etc Do you do something similar i.e., how do you join the three individual forms into one continuous form?. Also how do you end the hyung, e.g. do you end with the Naihanchi Cho Dan ready stance NB love your Korean Forms Video Resource web page, great work. Best Regards Eamonn 1st Dan - Johnson's Tang Soo Do Confidentiality Note: The information in this electronic mail ("e-mail") message may be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by privilege, work product immunity or other applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient the retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this electronic mail ("e-mail") in error please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0) 24 7686 2000 or by e-mail at postmaster@cel-international.com. Thank you. Registered in England No. 3877626 Registered Office 256 Foleshill Road Coventry CV6 5AB --__--__-- Message: 11 From: tntcombatives@attbi.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 01:53:25 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] fighting the mentally challenged/ill Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings All, I am a member of a police interagency crisis team that specifically deals with violent mental incidents. I have seen some fairly strange stuff, and have fought more than one mental health consumer...they can be suprisingly strong. You have the obligation to defend yourself to keep you from harm. If the spec.ed. student was in a normal school, they probably have enough mental capacity to know that their behavior is unacceptable. Many take advantage of their special needs status to act out or exibit bizarre behaviors. To a certain extent some of what they do is simply how they know to express themselves...although not very positive. I have not met any more-or-less functional persons with mental retardation or mental problems that has been unaware that their violent behavior is wrong. The two that took a shock from my Taser immediately changed their behavior and appologized for acting up. I would defend myself to stop the threat, and be sure to report the incident to school staff. The person's violent actions have the potential to cause injury just like any other student, and it is a safety & liability issue for the school to continue to allow the person to remain, unless they have full supervision by a qualified person. -- Mark Gajdostik TNT-Police Combatives 503-789-1356 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest