Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:01:49 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #141 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Naihanchi Redux? (Dennis McHenry) 2. Injuries (Rudy Timmerman) 3. Thanks Pat= Needle Point Anyone ? (Ken McDonough) 4. From Behind ? For Sensei Kirkham (Ken McDonough) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Troll=3F?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Multiple_Births?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Variations?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 8. Multiple Births (Ray Terry) 9. injuries (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 04:36:58 GMT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Dennis McHenry Subject: [The_Dojang] Naihanchi Redux? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Eamonn, I've met Master Johnson in Tampa Florida a few years ago, during an International TSD Championships. He even gave me copies of a MA magazine that he was the featured cover story. Very nice guy. <> We would just go from the last move of one directly into the first move of the next without going through a 'choombe' - which sounds similar to what you do. We haven't ended it with the Naihanchi ChoDan ready stance, but that's a good idea when doing them as one. <> Thank you sir. Say hello to Master Johnson for me. Mac Master Dennis P. McHenry Houston, Texas USA E-Mail: D.McHenry@juno.com http://McHenry.homeip.net/TangSooDo TangSooDo Director, USKMAF ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 01:27:18 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Injuries Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Here I sit, typing poorly with my right radius and ulna > pinned together with titanium. I discovered two Olympic style TKD > >fighters at the recent Battle of Columbus Last time I attended this tournament, two years ago, they actually had people waiting in line (on stretchers) for the ambulance. Never in my life have I seen so much carnage at a tournament. No excuse for that, and IMHO judging was totally out of control in an otherwise great event. It does not surprise me to see that someone got injured again and, if it was anything like the last year I went, you were probably one of many injured competitors. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 07:34:47 -0800 (PST) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Thanks Pat= Needle Point Anyone ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Pat Hay, you partially wrote: To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:02:03 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Ken's fight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ken's story must have nicked an exposed nerve or something because I am usually just a lurker on this forum...> Response: I agree completely with your comments. I don't frequent bars either anymore but like to meet colleagues after work on occasion. Yet, this has been a good experience since I have now taken up the following hobbies: -Needlepoint -Macrame - Watching TV and eating Polish Sausages on Fridays and Saturdays along with a big bowl of oily onion rings while simultaneously going over in my mind the young days... - Bowling in the Pee Wee League - Sea Scouts for Older Adults - Connecting dots and learning how to draw - Building my own wheelchair with remote control axe throwers - Did I say needle point ? Big Ken --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 11:30:40 -0800 (PST) From: Ken McDonough To: MartialScience@topica.com Cc: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] From Behind ? For Sensei Kirkham Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sensei Kirkham, you asked: Subject: Re: True but am I black and blue ? Ken I never got a response or I missed it; I was just wondering if you knew the other guy was coming up on you from behind?> Response: Good question Sensei K. I could lie and say "I was perfectly aware of all variable around me." Truth be told, the second guy was trying to throw me a punch from behind, but he was grabbed by another guy who held him..." So, guess what if I tried to walk outside or even walk away. These dudes were looking to tangle. If it was not me it would have been someone else...so, you can try to walk away sometimes...but sometimes your in the wrong place at the wrong time...and have to make do with what is around you..." Does calculated chaos work ? Ken --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 13:40:36 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Troll=3F?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dakin: ".....Bruce, that was the sweetest and most innocent troll I've seen in a while! :) Personally I think there's plenty in the archives that people can read about that. It was great that GM Lee gave out all that information, but really, unless someone turns up new information from the 1960s, it is going to be very hard to figure out the truth. ....." My students would categorize me closer to a gremlin than a troll....:-) but all the same I keep harping on the same theme because apparently there are still folks out there who have never gotten past the "cuz teacher said so" level of information. For myself, I have been over this information mant times and it always comes up to the same thing. What I have is that in the 50-s and 60-s about a dozen folks with approximately the same level of experience and roughly all age-mates began to vie with each other for the top of the heap. One of the well-known commonalities to all of these folks is that at one time or another they were affiliated with Yong Sul Choi for varied periods of time. Since that time these folks have invoked everything from Korean history to Korean culture to authenticate their particular claim to whatever the most pretigious or influential position in Korean martial traditions might be. Failing that, instead of supporting one individual or organization, also-rans go out and start their own organization and repeat the process albeit within the context of that new organization. Now, truth be told I don't mind people following this process but I have noticed that the more it happens the farther the actual art being practice wanders from Korean traditions and becomes more contrived and inventive. For instance, I have not heard from anyone who actually practices the emptyhand hyung as published in the MYTBTJ. How much more traditional can one get? And what about the assorted weapons in the same work. Kuk Sool is supposedly heavily influenced by Praying Mantis (Southern Tradition) but I don't hear anyone chasing down resources to expand their understanding of this aspect of their training. Ok, OK. I know. You have heard this all before. I'm just wondering why this is just so hard for people to pick-up on? Nobody seems to have a problem chewing over this same cud each time it comes up, but I never see much movement towards building on what we know. I will now return to my place under the bridge to await the Three Billygoats Gruff. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 13:52:02 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Multiple_Births?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: "......I thought he studied Yawara/Hapkido from Gm Choi, but doesn't he well predate the creation of Kuk Sool Won and Kuk Sool HKD?......" I had gotten the impression reading Dr. Kimms' book that all three arts had popped onto the scene within the same three-year period. Of course GM Choi, Yong Sul was doing his thing, but apparently there were also other who were working to establish (or had established) classes in their respective arts. The result I see is that GM Choi was one part of the mix, but other students who trained not only with Choi but with others began to vie for positions of influence in the Korean MA community. Lee, Ji and Seo all seem to have come to the US and found fertile ground for starting their own organizations here. They also seemed to have organized elaborate oral traditions to authenticate their claims. Its only when folks start poking around under those oral traditions and asking for something more substantial in the way of evidence do all of these "traditions" begin to fall apart. Personally, I would like these folks to publish some material on the state of KMA practice circa 1850 to 1900 and name some names, give some locations and identify some practices. Thats only 150 years ago. Not too much to ask, is it? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 14:02:20 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Variations?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Eamonn: ".....We also perform the three Naihanchi as one continuous form, on completion of the first form we pivot 180 degrees to face the opposite way and go straight into the first move of the second form etc Do you do something similar i.e., how do you join the three individual forms into one continuous form?. Also how do you end the hyung, e.g. do you end with the Naihanchi Cho Dan ready stance................" I wish I could remember the author of a work that addresses the whole matter of Naifanchi and its variations. The book I am thinking of uses the first half of #1, the first half of #2 and the last half of #3, then completes the hyung by going right into the 2nd half of #1, the second half of #2 and ends with the first half of #3. The theory is that this order seems to maximize the grappling/wrist-locking applications. I have read the material a couple of times and am not sure I completely agree with the authors' conclusions. There is no arguing with the effectiveness of the way in which the author torgues the wrist, I am just not sure that things were meant to come together as he says. Personally, I think that Naifanchi was intended as a single hyung and that variances were developed to integrate or extend development of particular hip use into a wider variety of applications. I understand that there is still a Chinese form studied in Taiwan that closely resembles Naihanchi #1 but is part and parcel of a Chuan Fa tradition. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 15:04:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Multiple Births Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > "......I thought he studied Yawara/Hapkido from Gm Choi, but doesn't he > well predate the creation of Kuk Sool Won and Kuk Sool HKD?......" > > I had gotten the impression reading Dr. Kimms' book that all three arts had > popped onto the scene within the same three-year period. All three? Choi's Yawara well precedes HKD and KSW. Where in which of Dr. Kimm's books claims otherwise??? > ... Lee, Ji and Seo all seem > to have come to the US and found fertile ground for starting their own > organizations here. They also seemed to have organized elaborate oral > traditions to authenticate their claims. True for Lee and Seo/Suh, but not so for Ji. Gm Ji would quite possibily have stayed in S.Korea had President Park not been assassinated. But who knows.?. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 16:56:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] injuries Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net FWIW, from Men's Health magazine, Jan/Feb 2003... Emergency rooms treated more than 4 million sport and recreation related injuries last year. Although teenage boys suffer the most injuries, men over 20 get their share as well. See how well your favorite pastime rates on the E.R.-o-meter. E.R. Treated Injuries in men over 20. Basketball 213,847 Bicycling 147,140 Lifting, running 88,532 Football 61,353 Softball 50,824 Riding ATVs 42,768 Soccer 31,642 Baseball 23,115 Fishing 17,798 Horseback riding 11,020 Boxing, Karate 10,859 Golf 8,469 Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest