Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 03:01:46 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #142 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Injuries (foxdragon@cuttingedge.net) 2. First images (Action Reaction School of Self-Defense) 3. Sports Injuries (Rudy Timmerman) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Patterns_in_Development?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. Bob's Patterns (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 07:38:28 -0600 From: foxdragon@cuttingedge.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Injuries Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net --and they say motorcycling is a dangerous hobby--Good examples Ray, of injuries from sports that you get nothing out of with the exception of the Pro sports, of course. Donna From: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] injuries FWIW, from Men's Health magazine, Jan/Feb 2003... Emergency rooms treated more than 4 million sport and recreation related injuries last year. Although teenage boys suffer the most injuries, men over 20 get their share as well. See how well your favorite pastime rates on the E.R.-o-meter. E.R. Treated Injuries in men over 20. Basketball 213,847 Bicycling 147,140 Lifting, running 88,532 Football 61,353 Softball 50,824 Riding ATVs 42,768 Soccer 31,642 Baseball 23,115 Fishing 17,798 Horseback riding 11,020 Boxing, Karate 10,859 Golf 8,469 Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Action Reaction School of Self-Defense" To: Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:26:58 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] First images Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, Since I know that the images of first US casulaties will not be shown in the US, I thought to send yiou this: "The first images of US soldiers who died serving their country have been shown here in Europe. I do not think they will be aired in the US, so here is a brief description of what has been shown: A truck and a small trailer behind, in the middle of nowhere, with one body in the front and one in the back. It looked to me like it was a logistic truck. That is what has been shown so far. On the POW side, they have shown 4 soldiers (three men and a woman). They were exhibiting them like trophy. A journalist was interrogating them (where are you from, are you here to kill Iraqi people, have you been greated with guns or flowers). It is not easy to watch these first images. Vittorio" --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 15:56:02 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Sports Injuries Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray writes: > E.R. Treated Injuries in men over 20. > > Basketball 213,847 > Bicycling 147,140 > Lifting, running 88,532 > Football 61,353 > Softball 50,824 > Riding ATVs 42,768 > Soccer 31,642 > Baseball 23,115 > Fishing 17,798 > Horseback riding 11,020 > Boxing, Karate 10,859 > Golf 8,469 > > Ray Terry Hello Ray: I was well aware that martial arts has a very good record as far as injuries are concerned. One wonders if this record would improve if they took a tiny bit more care at the Arnold Classics:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:47:51 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Patterns_in_Development?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: ".....> "......I thought he studied Yawara/Hapkido from Gm Choi, but doesn't he > well predate the creation of Kuk Sool Won and Kuk Sool HKD?......" > > I had gotten the impression reading Dr. Kimms' book that all three arts had > popped onto the scene within the same three-year period. All three? Choi's Yawara well precedes HKD and KSW. Where in which of Dr. Kimm's books claims otherwise??? > ... Lee, Ji and Seo all seem > to have come to the US and found fertile ground for starting their own > organizations here. They also seemed to have organized elaborate oral > traditions to authenticate their claims. True for Lee and Seo/Suh, but not so for Ji. Gm Ji would quite possibily have stayed in S.Korea had President Park not been assassinated. But who knows.?......." Lots of stuff to work with here, but what I am looking at are some larger patterns. 1.) I think we need to avoid getting pinned down to Choi, Yong Sul as the single source of the Hapkido arts. Each of the personalities I mentioned has reported training with individuals in addition to GM Choi so we know that other folks had working groups of practitioners learning alternate methods at approximately the same time as Choi. There is also the matter of at least one other Korean national, Jang In Mok, actually trained and certified in DRAJJ who came back to Korea and taught his interpretation of that art. However, you are absolutely correct, of course, that Chois' material pre-dated that of those students who report having studied under him. 2.) I also think that the manner in which oral histories are skewed by select individuals to support their individual take on things is long on oral tradition and short on documentation, and, as such should be taken with much salt--- across the board and regardless of who the speaker is. Maybe Ji HAD to leave Korea, and maybe he didn't. The fact is that he did and has been pushing Sin Mu Hapkido. The same goes for Lee who now pushes HwaRangdo, and In Hyuk Suh who pushes Kuk Sool Won. Thats fine for them. I just wonder why all of these folks weren't able to remain in Korea and develop a working, and respectful, relationship with the others. Maybe there simply was not enough room for the Korean culture to hold so many alternate versions of the story of how their respective arts developed in such close proximity. Which leads me to point #3-- missing persons. 3.) There are folks who are referenced in interviews and histories who simply seem to exist in name only. GM Ji mentions a couple in his recent interview-- yes, THAT interview. GM Seo mentions that he trained under a Chinese boxing teacher and references his grandfathers' work in the palace. And, of course, we all know the story of GM Lees' Suahm Dosa experience. IS it just me or does anyone else seem to notice how all of these traditions seem to die-off when one goes back before these referenced personalities. For instance,for GM Lee, we DON'T know Suahm Dosa' teacher, and we DON'T know Grandfather Seos' teacher, nor do we know Monk Hae Dong or Wang Tae- eui's teachers. For GM Ji we DON'T know the teacher of "Old Man Lee" or the person he identifies as "Grandmother" in his interview. BTW & ATL: Somebody I never hear much about is Kim, Moo-woong, GM Jis' partner in introducing the curriculum of kicking techniques to Hapki-yu- sool to produce the precursor to Hapkido (Hapki-yu-kwon-sul). I have been nosing around to get more information on this person but there is very little to be found. Anyone have anything? Is there still a tradition descending from this side of the Choi tradition? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:14:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Bob's Patterns Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Maybe Ji HAD to leave Korea, and maybe he didn't. Was he forced to leave the country? Not that I am aware. But, yes, given the politics of the time he did pretty much have to leave. Little doubt about that. > And, of course, we all know the story of GM Lees' Suahm Dosa experience. IS > it just me or does anyone else seem to notice how all of these traditions > seem to die-off when one goes back before these referenced personalities. > For instance,for GM Lee, we DON'T know Suahm Dosa' teacher, and we DON'T > know Grandfather Seos' teacher, nor do we know Monk Hae Dong or Wang Tae- > eui's teachers. For GM Ji we DON'T know the teacher of "Old Man Lee" or the > person he identifies as "Grandmother" in his interview. Actually not so strange at all. I cannot recall the full name of my first Tang Soo Do instructor. It was Randy something-or-other. This was 30 years ago, I could have cared less about lineage then. As a matter of fact, lineage was never ever discussed. The same with my Judo instructor back in 1969. I can't even recall his first name. All I recall is that he was from NYC. Yet I was there and they were my instructors. A great many of us just have a difficult time remembering names. Hope that makes sense, Bob... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest