Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:03:01 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #143 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Jackson (ABurrese@aol.com) 2. Re: John and KHF (ABurrese@aol.com) 3. Choi's Tradition (Brandee McBride) 4. The Arnold and full contact (Wilson, Byron) 5. Korean history (Burdick, Dakin R) 6. Gm Ji and Poland (Ray Terry) 7. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Patterns_in_Development?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 8. Muyedobotongji (Burdick, Dakin R) 9. RE: Naihanchi (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 10. Re more from Bob... (Ray Terry) 11. (no subject) (Joe Gorges) 12. RE: Needle point (Hay, Pat) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 00:53:41 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Jackson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all, After getting back from the great time in Jackson, I came down with a pretty bad cold. Not sure if it was MT weather, my wife giving it to me for having fun down south without her, (she claims I gave it to her though) or what, but being sick is not fun any time, but especially when you are trying to catch up from being behind in the first place. Anyway, I'm about 85% now, and plugging away at getting a bit caught up. I wanted to say it was great to see old friends and meet new people in Jackson. Just wish there would have been more time, because I didn't get to spend as much time with people as I'd have liked, or to meet as many as I wanted. Just have to do more next time! Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 00:58:49 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: John and KHF Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net John, I sent you a note regarding helping with the KHF web site. Please let me know if I can help in any way. Looking forward to seeing the site expand. Bruce, sorry to hear about what happened to you. I talked a bit with Ray about it in Jackson. I can't believe someone would do that. And then you wonder about all the stuff about character he talks of. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Brandee McBride" To: Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:14:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Choi's Tradition Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce S. <> Hi Bruce. I believe so. GM Lim, Hyun-Soo of the Jung Ki Kwan teaches the art of Dojunim Choi along with GM Kim Yun-Sang of the Young Sul Kwan. Both are located in Korea and are two of the "only three 9th dans of Dojunim Choi." The third being GM Chin-Il Chang in New York. I haven't heard or seen much about what GM Chang teaches, but I did attend a seminar by him a couple of years ago. His technique was very good and quite similar to what I have seen with others of Dojunim Choi's students. The body manipulation and off-balancing seemed to be present with all of these people but somewhere it seemed to be getting lost with many other generations. When I went down to Jackson, I was pumped that Master West and his guys practice it too. Also at GM Ji's seminar he talks about stepping and making the person off-balanced. The body manipulation and off-balancing is what can make or break a technique (no pun intended). If a person uses a fake or a distraction that's fine, but they are taking a chance and rolling the dice. Hey, I'm not a lucky man, I need to know it's gonna work! ;) The body manipulations and off-balancing that I have learned since joining the Jung Ki Kwan will work on anyone with two arms, two legs and a head on top (or especially if their head is up thier own behind). No luck involved, just need to depend on myself and my technique. Take care Chris "from CT" LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:09:01 -0500 From: "Wilson, Byron" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] The Arnold and full contact Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sounds like most think I am an idiot for participating in the Olympic sparring. Maybe so. However, I don't feel that sparring, even full contact, is necessarily bad for the martial arts. Our dojang is non-contact without pads or light contact with full pads. My Sabumnim believes that it takes more skill to "touch contact" than to whale away at someone at full speed. I fully agree. To me, precise control is part of the "art" of TKD. The Arnold is a wonderful event. It brings Columbus much needed revenue and notoriety. However, the martial arts side has only been affiliated with it for the last three or four years. I have participated as a volunteer, a competitor, a side judge and a center referee. I thoroughly enjoy it. Grandmaster Joon p. Choi organizes this every year. He and his high ranks try to offer a full range of Asian culture and martial arts. Even though I do not train in his dojang, I respect his judgment in matters of TKD and the martial arts. While I would organize some things differently, I don't want to presume that I have a better grasp that GM Choi. Some arts (Muay Thai, San Shou) require full contact and grant "Cheung" for KO's. I referee the kids matches and have a ball. We, the referee's for the kids, are VERY strict about their protection (equipment) and unnecessary roughness or excessive contact. The kids that deserve to win, do win and without taking scalps. As for the upper ranks, 1st Dan and above, the refs usually let us fight and issue "kyong-yo" for excessive contact. I think a broken bone is prima fascia evidence of excessive contact but, I was a contestant, not a referee. I bowed out and lost the match. We are grown and reasonably intelligent adults. We can weigh risk and assess our exposure. =20 The medalists were all much better in offense and defense than me. The gentleman that broke my arm simply did not restrain his kick. He was 34. My only gripe is that at most every tournament, the old guys (50 +) have their bracket collapsed into the 32+ category. Being 50 this year, I can tell you that there is a substantial difference in my speed and flexibility at 50 as opposed to 32. Byron Wilson TKD Student [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of image001.jpg] --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:14:53 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean history Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: >There is also the matter of at least one other Korean national, Jang In Mok, actually trained and certified in DRAJJ who came back to Korea and taught his interpretation of that art. Has more appeared on Mr. Jang? He certainly seemed a hopeful source of more information but I haven't seen anything new since his name first appeared. >Maybe Ji HAD to leave Korea, and maybe he didn't. Given the nature of Korea, and the fact that he had already spent a year in jail there, I think that leaving was probably a very good idea. >I just wonder why all of these folks weren't able to remain in Korea and develop a working, and respectful, relationship with the others. Perhaps that has to do with the ROK's political system? As you mentioned, Ji left after Pres. Park was assassinated by his own KCIA. Each new President brought in his own preferred instructors (and federations). ROK is a screwed up country in terms of its political leadership. Military dictators, former collaborators with the Japanese, Communist sympathizers, etc. all vie for power. For goodness sake, the Blue House had its own official torturer (a hapkido man) fairly recently. It is NOT a model democracy. The reason we don't hear more about it is because the North Koreans are so much worse. >GM Seo mentions that he trained under a Chinese boxing teacher and references his grandfathers' work in the palace. And, of course, we all know the story of GM Lees' Suahm Dosa experience. IS it just me or does anyone else seem to notice how all of these traditions seem to die-off when one goes back before these referenced personalities. I'll agree with you about the Suahm Dosa (Suh Am Dosa?) story (where is the evidence?) but GM Seo's background in gongfu (Praying Mantis, probably) is easy to believe. There are a lot of Chinese stylists in the ROK and they got there after the 1949 Chinese Revolution. I can tell some influence from baguazhang as well (there's some great books out by GM Pak on baguazhang now). > Kim, Moo-woong, GM Jis' partner in introducing the curriculum of kicking techniques to Hapki-yu- sool to produce the precursor to Hapkido (Hapki-yu-kwon-sul). I have been nosing around to get more information on this person but there is very little to be found. Anyone have anything? Look under Moo-Hyun Kim, which was an alternate way his name was given. I don't have my notes next to me, but I seem to recall that he became a successful businessman and therefore didn't have much time to spread the art. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 06:48:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Gm Ji and Poland Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I had a chance to talk with Gm Ji a couple times last week. The info I had received was incorrect. Actually he was teaching over much of Europe, but not in Poland. After going back to check the info, it seemed he was to be in Poland just a few days ago. A website in Europe was claiming that they were hosting him in Poland for a seminar, I think this past weekend. Apparently it was wrong. And then when I heard Finland (one place he was), I thought Poland (one place he wasn't). Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:34:19 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Patterns_in_Development?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: ".....Actually not so strange at all. I cannot recall the full name of my first Tang Soo Do instructor. It was Randy something-or-other. This was 30 years ago, I could have cared less about lineage then......." Well, it does, and then again, it doesn't. For instance, after I read your post I thought back to my first days in martial arts and practicing Shudokan Karate. As embarrassing as it is to admit, I can't remember my teachers' full name or those of many of the students I trained with for a number of years either. Nor can I remember the names of people who ran associate schools in the surrounding southern Illinois area. On the other hand, though, and even after some 30 years I can still remember that we were all members of Brownridge Institute out of Champaign-Urbana and that Master David Brownridge was the person we identified as the head of the organization. Now, going back to what I mentioned in my earlier post, I don't think that when someone identifies a person as a "monk" that it is too much to expect that they can likewise identify the Order or monastery that monk belongs to. If a person studies Chuan Fa and identifies a personality it should not be too much to expect that one can likewise identify the style and the source of that study. Where a family member is concerned--- as in the case of GM Seo's grandfather I would think that there would be no end of information, especially where there are five notebooks left as a legacy. Please note that I am not suggesting a lineage that goes back 15 or 20 generations (or 59 in the case of GM Lee and the HwaRangDo). I just think it would be nice to have more information that might take us back to say, 1800. Thats only 200 years, and fifty of that have been in our lifetime. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:36:27 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Muyedobotongji Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >For instance, I have not heard from anyone who actually practices the emptyhand hyung as published in the MYTBTJ. How much more traditional can one get? Ki Hwang's did those as part of his subak. Did you ask any of the tangsudo folks? And I bet the forms themselves are traditional gongfu forms that could be found in Chinese martial arts schools. Did you read the recent translation of the MYTBTJ? The reviewers I read didn't like it, but I thought that at least he got it done and that in itself was useful. I know I learned a lot from reading it. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdickd@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:39:36 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Naihanchi Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I would sure like the info for this book if you can find or remember it. <>>>>>> Do you have a source for this? See it in a particular school or art? Or better yet in a book? I would appreciate any additional info on this you could come up with. <<<<<<<<<< I understand that there is still a Chinese form studied in Taiwan that closely resembles Naihanchi #1 but is part and parcel of a Chuan Fa tradition.>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for any additional info you can give. Danny Dunn --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 07:10:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re more from Bob... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Now, going back to what I mentioned in my earlier post, I don't think that > when someone identifies a person as a "monk" that it is too much to expect > that they can likewise identify the Order or monastery that monk belongs to. We must realize that people are different, not all like 'us'. It seems not strange at all that one would know that someone is a Baptist minister without worrying about if they are a Southern Baptist vs. an American Baptist (are their others?). A few would get to the details, but probably more would not. Rev. is sufficient... imho Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Joe Gorges" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:20:18 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray writes: >E.R. Treated Injuries in men over 20. > >Basketball 213,847 >Bicycling 147,140 >Lifting, running 88,532 >Football 61,353 >Softball 50,824 >Riding ATVs 42,768 >Soccer 31,642 >Baseball 23,115 >Fishing 17,798 >Horseback riding 11,020 >Boxing, Karate 10,859 >Golf 8,469 Martial arts may have less people getting injured, but there is less people practicing than the other things on the list. Drive through any city and you will see someone running, riding a bike, or basketball games going on. Proportionately there should be more injuries in these types of activities. Respectfully yours, Joe Gorges _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Hay, Pat" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:49:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Needle point Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Did you say Macrame? Pat H. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest