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<<------------------   The_Dojang mailing list   ------------------>>

Serving the Internet since June 1994.
Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource

The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts.

See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine
for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com

Pil Seung!

Today's Topics:

   1. RE: 6th Annual He Young Kimm Cup Tournament (Stovall, Craig)
   2. Re: Brainerd Seminar (Rob Frankovich)
   3. Re: Mr. Robert Block (Dewitt, Garrett)
   4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Shudokan_vs_Shotokan_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com)
   5. Re: Brainerd Seminar (Dewitt, Garrett)
   6. re:  Certifications (Joel McTague)
   7. Re: Stupid observation regarding kwan name (Kent Frazier)
   8. RE: Stupid observation regarding kwan name (Wallace, John)
   9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Getting_the_"feel"_for_the_hyung?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com)
  10. Sabaki Challenge (FirstPe315@aol.com)
  11. Dan Certification (Charles Richards)
  12. bogus certs (Ray Terry)
  13. Re: Buddha's B-day (ABurrese@aol.com)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: "Stovall, Craig" <CStovall@nucorar.com>
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:17:44 -0600 
Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: 6th Annual He Young Kimm Cup Tournament
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Chris wrote,

<<<The highlights of the competition were a demonstration by Dojunim and
Chief Master Jamie Serio and the team ssirem competition.>>>

Can you elaborate a little more?  I've only seen a demonstration of ssirem
(sp?) on television once...I think I saw it demoed during one of those U.S.
Amateur Sumo competitions that are on ESPN every once in a great while.  Was
this contested in the traditional manner, or was this a modified contest at
your tournament?  I was under the impression that ssirem was pretty rare on
this side of the Pacific, so I'm a bit surprised that there's actually folks
over here teaching and contesting it (the demo I saw was done by Korean
nationals).  What/where are some of the prominent groups, schools, and
organizations here in the states that are promoting and contesting this
tradition?  Also, do you know of any good web sources for this?  Thanks!

Craig "I Luv Grappling" Stovall

--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:25:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Rob Frankovich <tiger_consult@yahoo.com>
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Brainerd Seminar
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:42:27 -0800
> From: Rudy Timmerman <kwanjang@sympatico.ca>
> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
> Subject: [The_Dojang] Brainerd Seminar
> Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
> 
> Greetings everyone:
> Master DeWitt of the Brainerd TKD school pointed out
> to me that I had 
> mistakenly informed the list that his seminar is
> scheduled for THIS 
> weekend.  Actually, it is the NEXT weekend of April
> 12th.  Sorry folks, 
> I guess I am just too anxious to see the good folks
> in Brainerd:)  I 
> will teach Bong (staff)  sool/hyung as well as Kong
> Shin Bup ho shin 
> sool.  All list members are welcome!
> Sincerely, Rudy

Mr. Timmerman,

By Brainerd, are you referring to Brainerd, MN?

Rob


=====
Robert Frankovich
Chief Instructor & Senior Trainer (www.tigerconsulting.org)
Executive Director of Sparrow Institute (www.geocities.com/sparrowinstitute)

"There is more to balance than not falling over." - Michael Angier

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Message: 3
From: "Dewitt, Garrett" <Garrett.Dewitt@state.mn.us>
To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'"
  <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:33:57 -0600 
Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Mr. Robert Block
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Mr. Robert Block
In reading your post regarding the WTFand or any other legitimate Korean
Martial Arts certification, I cannot tell you
how many times I have talked to or have had phone calls directly relating to
this issue.
I personally have some connections for the following legitimate Korean
certifications:
Korean Chung Do Kwan Fed, KHF, IHF, WTF/Kukkiwon and Chang Moo Kwan.  If you
e-mail me directly, I may be
able to get you going in the right direction.
Although I can receive certification from these organizations and on
occasion, I do, about three years ago I was accepted into the membership of
the NKMAA and have NOT ever regretted it.  Their is NO deceit, NO dishonesty
and nobody financially draining my
DoJang bank account.   
Mr. Block, Ms. Kat Kelly said it best in her post on the DD, please check
out the nkmaa.ca 
Grandmaster Timmerman is one of the most humble individuals you may ever
meet.
Hope to hear from you.
Master Garrett DeWitt
btkd.net 
brogue@brainerd.net

--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:23:06 -0600 (CST)
From: <bsims@midwesthapkido.com>
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Shudokan_vs_Shotokan_?=
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Dear Jeremy: 

Right off the bat let me say that I defer any comment on the relationship 
between Japanese Karate and Korean Taekwondo or Tangsoodo to folks who 
travel in those circles. Its not that I don't have my own thoughts and 
knowledge base, but only that I think it would be unseemly for me to 
comment on the heritage of an art I don't actually practice. On the other 
hand I have had more than a little experience explain the difference 
between Shudokan and Shotokan so first off let me give you this clip from a 
Karate website in Yakima, Wa.

".....
With the advent of Gichin Funakoshi's introduction of Okinawan Karate to 
Japan in the early 1920's, the popularity of karate began to grow. Soon, 
other Okinawan masters began to travel to Japan to proliferate their arts. 
One such man was Kanken Toyama, whose Okinawan name was Kanken Oyadamari. A 
school teacher by profession, Toyama's chosen avocation was the instruction 
of karate. He started his karate training at the age of 9 with a master 
named Itarashiki. His major teacher was the famous Itosu Yasutsune, with 
whom Toyama studied for 18 years.

In 1907 Toyama became Itosu's assistant at Shuri dojo. Toyama became one of 
only two of Itosu's students to be granted the title of "Shihanchi", or 
protege, of Itosu's O kuge (innermost secrets).

 Aside from learning Shorin-ryu from Itosu, Toyama studied and mastered 
their styles of karate from other notable masters of Naha-te and Tomari-te, 
which included weapons arts. A few of his other teachers were, Aragaki, 
Azato. Chibana, Higaonna, Oshiro, and Tana. Toyama's interest in martial 
arts was not limited to karate. He was considered an expert swordsman, as 
well. While on a six year assignment to teach elementary school in Japanese 
occupied Taiwan (1924-1930), he studied Chinese martial arts with masters 
Chen Fong Tai in Taipei and Lim Fun Fong in Taichung.

Given this diverse martial arts background, the Japanese government soon 
recognized Toyama's prowess, and awarded him the right to promote to any 
rank in any style of Okinawan karate. An official gave Toyama the title of 
master instructor. Toyama's first dojo was opened in Tokyo in 1930, and he 
quickly became famous for his Aka Ryoku (strong gripping methods of Itosu 
and Itarashiki).

The name of Toyama's school was Shudokan, which means "Institute for the 
cultivation of the way." Today, this term refers not only to his school, 
but also to his system. Shudokan karate is a composite system, encompassing 
Kobutjutsu (Ancient art, referring to the specialized weapons practice of 
Okinawan karate). There are also kata (formal exercises) that are unique to 
Shudokan karate. Shurite, sometimes known as Shorin-ryu, or Itosu-ha is a 
component of Shudokan karate. Its kata represent light, quick motions and a 
variety of power sources.

The Naha-te system's forms, sometimes known as Goju-ryu, Shorie-ryu, or 
Higashiona-ha, represent strong rooted motions with an emphasis on internal 
breathing. Power sources include both hard, and soft. The Tomari-te style 
is generally considered an extinct system except in a few composite systems 
such as Shudokan.

Tomari-te is characterized by the speed of the Shorin-ryu and the strength 
of the Naha-te, and also included its own soft type of power. Tomari-te 
included some tight yet sophisticated motions; and in appearance it is both 
graceful and noble.

The aspect of weapons in Shudokan adds to its versatility and practicality. 
Weapons have also affected the empty hand forms in that the motions tend to 
be larger, often drawing a number of intersecting circles, with different 
parts of the body moving on different planes at the same time.

Shudokan is characterized by large circular motions with an emphasis on 
covering. The practice of extension of the motions develops power and 
physique. Soft power is taught along with sophisticated applications. which 
included throws, blocks, and chokes. Because of the balance between hard 
and soft power, this system promotes good heath.

Shudokan, because of its physical character, has developed its own unique 
kata. One set of forms that were developed within the system is the Kyoku 
forms. There are seven kata in this group,. starting with the very basic 
techniques, and building into long complex form, in a set progression. 
Originally taught only at the Hombu Dojo (Headquarters School), even the 
most basic of these kata were reserved for members who held a third degree 
black belt or higher. These forms were developed to represent the fighting 
techniques of the system and were considered secret. Today, the basic Kyoku 
forms are taught only to brown belt student, and the longer more complex 
forms are still taught only to black belts.

Another unique set of forms created by Shudokan are; Sonshin, Kakashin, and 
Choshin. These forms are used to develop and concentrate the potential of 
an individual.

As an educator, Toyama believed his system should not stagnate. This 
intention was built into the system to allow for its continued growth of 
both the individual and style
.............."

Best Wishes, 

Bruce 

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Dewitt, Garrett" <Garrett.Dewitt@state.mn.us>
To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'"
  <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:43:04 -0600 
Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Brainerd Seminar
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Hello Grandmaster Timmerman
Thank you for your post on the DD.  Some of the students here were also
thinking it was this weekend.
I see the students are "anxious to have you  here to teach the "real"
thing."
It is going to be a very positive experience for all to have the privilege
to train with such honorable martial artists
from the NKMAA.
Respectfully Submitted.
Master Garrett DeWitt

--__--__--

Message: 6
From: "Joel McTague" <mctague@worldnet.att.net>
To: <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:58:08 -0500
Subject: [The_Dojang] re:  Certifications
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

You may also want to try the AAU as well.  Their website is
www.aautaekwondo.org

Joel Martin McTague, J.D., M.B.A., D.B.A. (Fin) candidate, R.F.C., Ch.F.C.,
M.F.P.
2nd Dan, Tae Kwon Do
1st Dan, Hapkido
mctague@worldnet.att.net


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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:52:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Frazier <kent@bluewavekarate.com>
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Stupid observation regarding kwan name
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

> Message: 6
> From: "John Johnson" <beowulf600@hotmail.com>
> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
> Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Stupid observation regarding
> kwan name
> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 10:25:52 +0000
> Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
> 
> Dear Mr Frazier,
> 
> While I know your observation was made in good humor, it
> may help you 
> understand what Jung Ki Kwan actually means. The word
> "jung" when written in 
> a specific Chinese character means "spirit" or "rightous"
> and, of course, 
> "Ki" is the Korean pronunciation of "chi" (internal
> energy). "Kwan" is the 
> term reserved for school when referring to a martial arts
> school. So, 
> literally the Jung Ki Kwan means "The school of chi
> spirit".
> 
> It may also may help you to know that you're probably
> mispronouncing the 
> word "jung". It is pronounced with a high back vowel  to
> rhyme with our 
> "sung", not the lower vowel sound you are probably using.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> John A. Johnson
> Seoul, South Korea
> III, Taekwondo (Independent)
> III, Korea Hapkido Federation

Hello Mr. Johnson,
I just thought I'd let you know that I was aware of the
meaning of the kwan name (I couldn't remember exactly what
'jung' meant, but I had the general idea.)  I just couldn't
pass up sharing what made me laugh aloud when I read it the
first time.  Also, I am not sure about what you mean about
my pronunciation.  Perhaps in your accent of english, the
vowels in sung and junkie are different, but the way I say
them (pretty standard educated American English accent)
they are exactly the same vowel.  Also, I have studied a
little bit of the Korean language, so I know the basic
phonemes of the language (though I claim no knowledge
beyind that point, and the difference between [wish I could
use hangul here] d/t, t', and tt, g/k, k', and kk, etc. are
pretty difficult for my English speaking mind to grasp.) 
In any case, I appreciate your attempts to enlighten me,
but I was just making a rather bad pun concerning the way
this specific name sounds to an English speaker.

To the unfettered spread of knowledge,
Kent

P.S.  To Chris: yeah, I figured you had probably heard it a
hundred times before, but I couldn't resist on the off
chance that you hadn't. :)

--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "Wallace, John" <John_Wallace@affymetrix.com>
To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'"
  <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Stupid observation regarding kwan name
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:45:49 -0800 
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Mr Johnson:
If you're not an ex-pat american, you may not realize americans tend to slur
consecutive consonants.  When I was puzzling through Craig's email I said
the name of your kwan out loud to myself.  It came out "junky".  Just one of
those weird verbal coincidences. With a minor bit of enunciative effort Jung
Ki is attainable though.

Best Regards
- John W.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Johnson [mailto:beowulf600@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 2:26 AM
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Stupid observation regarding kwan name

....

It may also may help you to know that you're probably mispronouncing the 
word "jung". It is pronounced with a high back vowel  to rhyme with our 
"sung", not the lower vowel sound you are probably using.

Hope this helps.

John A. Johnson
Seoul, South Korea
III, Taekwondo (Independent)
III, Korea Hapkido Federation

---
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--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:45:45 -0600 (CST)
From: <bsims@midwesthapkido.com>
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Getting_the_"feel"_for_the_hyung?=
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Dear Danny: 

"... And sometimes
modifications are made because a person wants to emphasize a different way 
to achieve a result.  I think all of these things have happened and 
significantly affect all the forms we practice today.  Otherwise, we would 
be able to see most of the forms I practice being done the same way in 
Korea, Japan, Okinawa and China.  So are these reconstructions the same 
forms that were practiced in the 1700's?  Yes and No.  I believe that a 
practitioner from that era would be able to recognize any of the 
reconstructions that I have seen, just as I am able to recognize the 20 or 
so variations of Bassai Dai that I have seen......" 

Its hard to explain what I am about to say on a Net such as this but there 
is one other influence that could invoke change in a hyung but I avoided 
mentioning it earlier because it is a little difficult to express. Let me 
use the Turtle Press video of the two-man sword hyung I am working 
on, 'kay? 

If you just watch the hyung at face value, it would probably appear to the 
average person that here are two guys banging wooden swords back and forth 
as they march up and down a path and switch positions. If however, a person 
has sword instruction they begin to identify certain ways the swords 
are "banged" indicating that there is much more subtle biomechanics at 
work. That said let me take it one more step. 

If you watch the same tape and have actually wielded a sword so as to cut 
something---- and ideally to attempt to cut something before or after 
executing a parry-- or maybe by including an actual cut while performing a 
hyung with a live blade----- one begins to "feel" that certain movements 
naturally follow wherein other sword movements are not as natural. You are 
absolutely right, Danny, to say that someone who has sword experience might 
be able to "connect the dots" and that some folks will turn-out a different 
result as they connect the dots differently. I would like to add that 
different folks will "feel" a naturalness to some movements and 
combinations that others do not. I will also go out on a limb and posit 
that this may be why so many people make such a big deal about lineages 
that descend from actual combat usage. There seem to be few things that 
authenticate a swordmans' "feel" for sword movement like a history of 
regular success under combat situations.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce 

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 16:17:42 -0500
From: FirstPe315@aol.com
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [The_Dojang] Sabaki Challenge
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Jye-

It is still going strong every year in Colorado.  My friend in Tigard is a guy I train with a few times a months and won the world championship last year in the Light Heavyweight Division.  It's held in Summer sometime.  

They sure fight hard.  Interesting style.  I had the chance to go to one of Kancho's seminars (the creator of the Sabaki Method).  Nice and humble guy, very laid-back.  It was a fun seminar.

For more information, you may want to visit www.enshin.com

Jeff


In a message dated 4/2/2003 3:16:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes:

> "What ever happened to the Sabaki challenge? Is it
> still around?
> 
> Jye"

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:43:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Richards <mojakwan@yahoo.com>
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan Certification
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

<<snip>>
Here is an issue I could use some advice on, I will attempt to be as 
short as possible. I do not intend on being disrespectful to my master,
I 
have questioned him and not received satisfactory explanation other 
then the idea which to some extent I agree with and to another
disagree, 
that a belt is only a piece of cloth. I trained for four and a half 
years and earned a 1st Dan belt issued only under our school, not WTF
or 
any other "recognized" organization, and was told so.

A year or so later 2nd Dan, it has been about 3 years now, I have 
started a martial arts Ministry for non profit. Quite early on I was
told, 
by my Master that he was looking for this and that which would allow
him 
to issue me a WTF certification. Now four years after, earning my 1st 
Dan, I have found out that I must begin with applying for 1st Dan 
through WTF, and the same time frames hold true for subsequent Dan
levels. I 
know, how gullible can I get, and shame on me for taking things at face

value, for not checking things out myself. Yes I feel that I have been 
let down to some degree. Do not get me wrong I am not pouting over all 
this, Because I am still OK with who I am, how far I have developed, 
and confident in my abilities, But I do want to be able to have some 
official recognition to verify my training. Am I making any sense??? Is

there anyway to rectify this?
<<end snip>>
Robert,

Kat has directed you to nkmaa (listmember GM Timmerman) and you could
also investigate uskmaf (listmember GM West).  Other sources are.
AAU Taekwondo program now has Dan and Gup Rank, and a written procedure
for transferring rank, testing to elevated rank, and becoming a dan
examiner.  One other idependent org would be aikia led by Dr. Jerry
Beasley in Radford, VA who is affiliated with Joe Lewis and Bill
Wallace.

Good Luck,

Charles Richards
www.mojakwan.com 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 12
From: Ray Terry <rterry@idiom.com>
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:58:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [The_Dojang] bogus certs
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

On the topic of Dan certs, this can be a very troublesome area.  The
problem is that certain folks will market fake dan certs from Korean orgs
knowing that they are bogus.  A number of folks have been bitten by this 
scam.  One of the more recent was someone selling KHF and KTA certs.  
According to the folks in Korea, it appears they are bogus.

Caveat emptor...

Ray Terry
rterry@idiom.com

--__--__--

Message: 13
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 19:28:46 -0500
From: ABurrese@aol.com
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Buddha's B-day
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Bruce posted:

>>>Our Order celebrates April 9th. Is the same date equivalent to what they celebrate in Korea? <<<

In Korea, and I believe Japan and other Asian countries, Buddha's Birthday is celebrated on the 8th day of the fourth month by the lunar calandar.  

April 9th is close, it's the 9th day of the 4th month.

I'm definitely not an experty on Buddhism.  I have a number of books that I have read, I believe in many of the teachings, but am not a practicing Buddhist.  As I stated earlier, my wife's birthday is the 9th day of the 4th month on the lunar calandar, so it is always the day after Buddha's birthday.  IT was easy to remember in Korea, since Buddha's birthday was always in RED being a national holiday there.  But without a calandar that shows lunar date too, it's hard for me to keep up with her birthday.

I'm glad others are offering their knowledge on this as well, since I can learn more than just my wife's birthday by starting this.

Yours in Training,
Alain

www.burrese.com


--__--__--

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