Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 13:45:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #156 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Poom vs. Dan (Morgan James) 2. thanks and ssirem (Chris Holmes) 3. Insanity (Charles Richards) 4. RE: Poom vs. Dan in WTF TKD (Michael Rowe) 5. head injuries (Burdick, Dakin R) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_DRAGON_TIMES_resource_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. 2003 Alliance Drug Free Open Martial Arts Tournament (Jeff Helaney) 8. Taegyun book (Ray Terry) 9. Kramer in Karate Class (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Morgan James To: 'Dojang Digest' Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 07:28:31 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Poom vs. Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I too agree that maturity should be part of earning the Black Belt. I'm not really sure what to think of the "Jr. Black Belt" though. Maybe it's a good idea. I have always been ITF/ITA TKD so I have no experience with such thing. But, I do have a situation occurring in my dojang. In my dojang I require kids(which I put in the age category of 12 yrs and younger) to learn the exacty same requirements as adults(13 yrs and up) do. Same forms, same 1-steps, same self-defense, kicks, everything.... I feel that if I DON'T do this, I am "cheating" the kid out of something. Now some of you will ask me "But do you require your kids to perform at the same proficiency as your adults?". My answer: YES! I have a small school of about 40 students and maybe that's why. I make my standards high just like my instructor did me. Just keepin the faith, ya know? My turnover ratio has been high among 10th - 8th Gups since I took over my current dojang back in 2000 and I think it's probably because the kids discover that I AM going to make them do everything adults do, that there is no "shortcuts", no favoritism. Everyone's equal, no matter what their age is. Now as far as discipline is concerned I am more lenient on the kids than I am adults due to that very same maturity discussed earlier. Kids are going to be kids. But when they reach 6th Gup Green Belt I bump them up into my Advanced Kid's class. These guys know the deal by now. I do believe the great Master J.R. West said one time something to the effect that "by the time they get to Green Belt they either come around to my way of thinking or they don't....". I have believed and taught by that thought for a looong time. So, getting back to the point. How do you guys handle a situation like mine where you don't really believe in kid's being Black Belts till about the age of 13 but yet you have a 10 year, who will turn 11 in August, who has worked his butt off and did very well all the way up to 1st Gup? If he tests for 1st Dan at the end of this year and passes would you grant him a "Jr. Black Belt" and then retest him for regular BB at 13 yrs old? The ONLY thing that differs in my 1st Dan requirements is the breaking part. That's it. He's a great kid and very mature for his age. This is definitely a new one for me. Master Hodder, when you come up here to WV in a couple weeks, you will meet this young man and maybe you can give me your insight to it as well. Thank you all. James Morgan GTKDA www.gtkda.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 07:54:58 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] thanks and ssirem Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Timmerman, Thank you for your reply on the acrobatic techniques. Sorry it to me so long to reply back to you. Mr. Stovall, the ssirem we do is somewhat modified, but to what extent I'm not certain. Traditional ssirem is done in a sand 'ring' I guess you would call it. The players are bare chested and have the 'harness' around their waist and leg. Obviously the college would not have allowed us to bring in a bunch of sand into their sports areana. So we compete on mats. Dojunim only has a few 'harnesses' and time constraints kept us from using them. Instead we use our belts, tied around the waist and below the right knee. We did it as a team competition this year and I have no clue as to if that is ever done in Korea. There were three man teams from differnt schools. They would face off and the captain would decide who to put against who. Size wise there were some serious mismatches but in traditial ssirem there are only two weight classes. Below 220lbs and above. The contestants sit and two opponents come out face each other and bow. (both teams had already bowed to the table with Dojunim.) They then go to both knees on the floor, they grab the belt on the other person then the ref instructs them to come up on their right knee,then left, and then up. He then says shijok(sp) and they began. Whoever is forced out of the ring or allows any part of their body except their feet to touch the mat loses. Everyone seems to love this, all the talented female martial artist I know that have done it love it also. One of my students was upset with me because we were going to practice this weekend and she had other obligations. Sorry for the long post. Chris Holmes _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 06:36:18 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Insanity Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net OK gang I've lost my mind. This summer I'm going to offer one (maybe two) weeks of Karate Camp (OK Tangsoodo). Anyone who has done this and wants to share some lessons learned (good and bad) can email me via the list or at mojakwan@yahoo.com. Like what field trips you did, what activities you covered, whatever.. Many Thanks, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 10:23:11 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Poom vs. Dan in WTF TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The real problem is not that some schools give out Black Belts to children. The real problem is that some schools give out black belts to adults that act like children. Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:07:07 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] head injuries Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A friend of mine forwarded me an interesting report on coup and contrecoup injuries to the head. The site of the report is: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993578 As far as tkd practice goes, the report clarifies why contrecoup injuries are the most severe, and why tkd helmets do NOT protect against brain injury. The helmet is there to cushion the skull, not the brain. The injuries that the brain receives are due to the fact it is floating in a pool of cerebrospinal fluid and bounces against the skull when the skull is sharply displaced (can you say, "back spin kick to the head"?). This is in line with medical reports on boxing injuries. One more note: does anyone know how many people have died in tkd competition so far? Last I heard it was 3 (the last one was a back spin kick to the head, and was dead before he hit the floor). Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 10:47:49 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_DRAGON_TIMES_resource_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jeremy: "..... The last couple of days I have been doing some extensive research on the Jidokwan and their connection to Shudokan. ......." I know I mentioned this before but I think the publication is worth referencing once more. DRAGON TIMES is running a 3-part "historical appraisal" on Taekwondo authored by Robert Dohrenwend. Volume 22 and 23 have parts one and two respectively. I also understand that the TIMES is changing its identity to become CLASSIC FIGHTING ARTS and that the premier issue of this new incarnation of the TIMES will carry the last installment of the Taeknowdo material. "Table 1 - The Early Kwans" identifies Chi Do Kwan (sic) ascribed to Shito-ryu and identified with Byung Yun Kwe. (Just as an aside I thought the article was very informative but was a bit anoyed by the tenor of the writing. For instance, characterizing Chung Do Kwan as a "Quisling organization" may have some foundation in fact, but could probably been communicated in a more professional manner.)"Table Two - The Main Kwans in 1953" identifies both the Chi Do Kwan of Byung Yun Kwe as well as the Ji Do Kwan (formerly Yun Mu Kwan) of Chung Woo Yi. BTW: This Yun Mu Kwan was ascribed to Shotokan and identified with Sup Jun Sang in that "Table One" I mentioned. Now, regarding Shudokan, there is a mention in the article on page 4 (col 4) that Yun Byung-In, founder of Chang Moo Kwan "...claim(ed) that he studied Chuan Fa and Shudokan and was accepted as a fourth dan at Nihon University by Toyama Kanken, the Okinawan founder of Shudokan because of his expertise in Chuan Fa." One other thing you might consider is contacting Eric Madis through Joe Svinths' website. Eric did a bang-up job on this very same aspect of KMA history (relationship between Taekwondo/Tangsoodo and Japanese Karate traditions). Perhaps if Eric is kibbutz-ing he would be willing to share some of his own material. Failing that you may want to get these issues of DT. The Toll Free ph# is 800-717-6288 for back issues. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jeff Helaney" To: Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:38:12 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] 2003 Alliance Drug Free Open Martial Arts Tournament Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The Alliance Police Department and the Alliance City School District are sponsoring the 3rd Annual Alliance Drug Free Open Martial Arts Tournament. The tournament will be held on Saturday, May 3, 2003 at the new Alliance Middle School located near S. Union Ave. (SR 183) and Beech Street in Alliance, Ohio. This event holds national sanctions from the International TaeKwon-Do Union and the Professional Karate Commission. It is, also, a PKC Ohio State Series AA rated event. There will be over 111 divisions including: Forms/Kata, Sparing/Kumite, Self-Defense, Weapons, Musical Forms, Breaking, and Grappling.Media attention appears to be strong again this year. Absolute Productions will be filming portions of the tournament for a special, and Pro-Karate Sport Weekly Radio Show w/ Nick and Greg Kalikas will be on hand to interview competitors. Results will be provided to TaeKwonDo Times Magazine. This years special guests include Hong Kong Action Star Vincent Lyn and Master Tom Merritt. Vincent Lyn will be conducting a seminar on stunt fighting the evening of Friday, May 2, 2003 for only $20.00 per person. Tom Merritt will be on hand to give out information about an upcoming movie he is working on with Cynthia Rothrock and how you can audition for it. All the tournament proceeds benefit local drug education programs including Kick Drugs Out of Alliance, and Students Against Destructive Decisions. For more information contact Assistant Chief of Police Jeff Helaney at (330) 821-9140 or check out our website at: http://members.aol.com/kdoa2/enter.html. Register on-line at ACTIVE.COM. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:37:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Taegyun book Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net FWIW. Forwarded message... To whom it may be concerned, My name is Yi, Taeshin, marketing manager of Barktur Publishing Company in South Korea. We have recently published books titled "TAEGYUN." These books are about a Korean ancient martial art, "TAEGYUN". It is designated as "Korean Important Intangible Cultural Properties (No.76)" by the Korean goverment. In the Korean martial arts field, "TAEGYUN" is the only one certified by the Korean government. Song dukgee, the last successor of "TAEGYUN", left all of his skills in photos in 1985. Taegyun has all the skills in Oriental martial arts such as TAEKWONDO, HAPKIDO, JUJUTSU, IKIDO, KARATE, JUDO. The book "TAEGYUN" has all the original skills these martial arts have. It is the origin al form of Japanese martial arts and is a good material to compare Korean martial arts with Japanese martial arts. About these books 1. The set has two volumes. 2. Each book contains ancient Korean martial art secret skills. 3. Each book has 304 pages, so the total is 608 pages. 4. There is no explanation text however there are more than 3,300 photos demonstrated by Song dukgee, the last successor of "TAEGYUN". If you want more information, please visit our website www.saetur.com/englishtaegyun.htm or you can download ADOBE PDF document from the link www.saetur.com/pdf/english.pdf. If you are interested in buying the books, please contact Yi, Taeshin, marketing manager. E-mail: saetur@saetur.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 14:51:32 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kramer in Karate Class Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael wrote, <<>> Man, this post really struck a chord with me. I understand what you're saying, and I believe one has to answer some very serious questions when faced with these types of dilemmas. Is this the type of training environment in which I want to immerse myself? Are there issues with the instructor and school/art/organizational culture that run counter to my vision of what martial arts practice entails, and in answering the all-important question, "What is a black belt?". Warning: what I'm about to say will piss some people off. I've never been involved with a "modern commercial martial arts school". By that term, I mean a school that has pretty much compromised quality and integrity in order to fill the rosters by promoting anyone that "just shows up", and by offering glorified after school daycare programs filled with pre-teen brown and black belts. Now, that's my perception, but perhaps it has some validity outside of this twisted gray matter that I call a brain. Having said that, I have been involved with schools that were commercial in nature, had a healthy children's roster, and promoted teens and pre-teens to ranks that did not compel me to hang my head in shame. Yes, the instructor wanted/needed to make a living, but he wasn't willing to cross a certain line in order to do it. The trick (IMHO) is in knowing where that line is, and to not go off of the deep end. If you have a policy of promoting pre-teens up to brown belt and holding them there (or having a junior black belt program) then I think this is an indicator that quality and integrity are still on the radar screen. If, on the other hand, you go to a school where it's not uncommon to see two second degree black belts trading Pokemon cards in the waiting area before class...well, I think the almighty dollar has taken over, and the "serious" practitioner has to decide whether or not to move on to greener pastures. For me, children with black belt rank speaks to a larger issue within the practice of martial arts. In short, the last few decades have seen a very "egalitarian" (for lack of a better vocabulary word) shift in the practice and promulgation of the arts. The attitude in many corners has become one of, "martial arts are for everybody...come on down!!!". I don't agree with this premise. For example, few people would argue with me if I said, "playing organized, competitive football is not for everybody". Playing football (bench riding doesn't count) is an activity that requires a certain level of size, strength, speed, and aggression relative to the position on the field. To say that these traits are not evenly distributed throughout the gene pool is a statement of fact, and one can safely say that in order to make "playing football" accessible to a large portion of the population, one must redefine the game in some manner so as to change the very nature of the activity itself. Practicing "martial arts" per my personal definition of the activity, would tend to have similar limiting factors. Before I'm accused of being a troglodyte that cannot see beyond the physical aspects of martial arts and sports, let me use higher mathematics as an example. Despite some educators' misty eyed mantra of, "anybody can learn anything" I've found that certain people just tend to think a little differently than the rest of the population. Hard core mathematicians are a good example. For whatever reason, they perceive, filter, assimilate, organize, and interpret the world in a slightly different fashion than your average Suzy Q. Homemaker. As such, they have an advantage over the rest of us when it comes to the higher tools of math in terms of learning and practical application. Desire and hard work go a long way, but I'm never going to understand certain aspects of calculus and geometry. My head just doesn't fit. And some people are never going to be (or more accurately...DESERVE to be) a black belt...per my personal definition of that entity. In fairness, there's a little play in there because everyone is different...but pre-teens don't seem to have a seat at my particular table. Now, martial arts is not THAT exclusive of a club compared to understanding data encryption algorithms, and a good many people of all shapes, ages, and sizes can perform up to a level that is congruent with my personal view of "how it should be done". Now, the problem comes in when I say, "martial arts aren't for everyone" because that leaves it pretty wide open, and we can start filtering along all sorts of criteria including age, gender, ability, etc. But the issue here is age, and I have some pretty strong opinions about that. Suffice it to say that they are just my opinions and I don't care to proscribe normative ideals in regards to "what is martial arts?", and the definition of a "black belt". I don't have a concrete notion of "how things should be"...there are just certain things that don't jive with my particular world view. One of my favorite training environments was when I was involved with a BJJ training association run by a couple of Royce's purple belts. It was absolute heaven. The entire group was comprised of males running from late teens to early forties, and not only did I feel that I was getting exactly what I was looking for in terms of adequate training partners, but one cannot appreciate the fraternal feelings that comes out of such an environment until one has been immersed in it. I have an easy time relating to Bill the Air Force recruiter, Paul the ATF agent, and Corey the high school wrestler. I have a hard time relating to Jimmy, the 11 year old asthmatic brown belt who has somehow failed to learn a proper front stance, and who's only redeeming quality is the fact that his hottie Mom likes to stay and watch the class (yes, I'm a pig). Now, part of that is on me because I'm holding him to an ideal that I'm defining, and the fact that I like to train a certain way with certain types of people...there's nothing objective about it. However, part of it is on the school/owner/teacher because in the movement to make the arts more inclusive (for either commercial or non-commercial reasons) we have redefined the very essence of what we are doing. Martial arts (as I like to do it) is physically, mentally, and spiritually demanding. In order for a pre-teen to keep up, we have either altered the essence of what constitutes "martial arts", or we have discovered a very gifted young person. In my experience, when I see training environments full of children (particularly dan ranked children), I tend to also see programs that have become diluted, superficial, and irrelevant to the original source material. When I see training environments full of adults, I tend to also see programs that are demanding, substantial, and relevant vehicles toward achieving goals on different physical and mental levels. My experience...your mileage may vary, and the truth is somewhere in between. But then again, as my wife is fond of reminding me...I don't know jack $h!t. FWIW. Craig "Children Should Be Seen...Not Ranked" Stovall --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest