Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 16:58:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #157 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. To junior blackbelt or not? (Charles Richards) 2. Poom vs. Dan in WTF TKD (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 3. Re: Poom vs. dan (DPRYGA) 4. Black Belt qualifications (jmchie@wideopenwest.com) 5. Growing up with my rank (TeachingInChina@aol.com) 6. Commercial Schools? (Michael Rowe) 7. Black Belts (Michael Rowe) 8. RE: poom vs Dan (Michael Rowe) 9. Young Black Belts (Erik Hanson) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 14:21:38 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] To junior blackbelt or not? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> So, getting back to the point. How do you guys handle a situation like mine where you don't really believe in kid's being Black Belts till about the age of 13 but yet you have a 10 year, who will turn 11 in August, who has worked his butt off and did very well all the way up to 1st Gup? If he tests for 1st Dan at the end of this year and passes would you grant him a "Jr. Black Belt" and then retest him for regular BB at 13 yrs old? The ONLY thing that differs in my 1st Dan requirements is the breaking part. That's it. He's a great kid and very mature for his age. This is definitely a new one for me. Master Hodder, when you come up here to WV in a couple weeks, you will meet this young man and maybe you can give me your insight to it as well. <> Dear James, We approach youth training very similar. Originally I was very oppossed to a poom or junior blackbelt status. Of course I agree the average 9 year old is way to immature for blackbelt status, but others differ. In my student manual I intentionally left out an age requirement for 1st and 2nd dan (3rd dan chief instructor must be 18). I said I was going to teach everyone the same, etc.....now for reality. When we moved to the retail space we went to age specific classes 5-8,8-12 and 13+. Now my 8-12 year olds do about half my hoshinsul, and very little specific pressure point discussion, and my 5-8 year old do very little of either, so now that I have green belts of all ages, I must admit their is a different standard. Your post gets me thinking and on first blush I'm leaning towards no minimum age for 1st Dan, but a minimum age of 13 for 2nd Dan and 18 for 3rd Dan. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 17:23:08 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Poom vs. Dan in WTF TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael: Unfortunately there are many schools that give black belts to children. The only other school in this area is a Japanese karate school (don't know the ryu/style) and they give children black belts. They even advertise it in the paper, "little 8 yoa Johnny, got his karate black belt this weekend..." They also have contracts, joining fees, etc. (we do not). Although they are open 6 days a week like we are you can only come as many times as your program allows. Very strange. Sorry you got caught up in one of those places, but why did you stay? Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 16:43:36 -0600 From: DPRYGA To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Poom vs. dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Our schools use a policy which we adopted directly from Master Wests school. Basicly, 15 and under receive youth black belt ranks (poom). At age 16, based on a simple criteria, their rank expires, or is transfered to an adult black belt rank. (dan) This policy has solved the "how can little kids be black belts?" question we all face from time to time and it makes it very clear and easy to explain to prospective youth students, parents and adults. We think this is also a great incentive for our youth students to stick with their training. You might find a copy of the entire policy in the archives of this digest......Dave Pryga CWMAI --__--__-- Message: 4 From: jmchie@wideopenwest.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Black Belt qualifications Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 17:31:49 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think Craig's comments on black belts, expectations and maturity are very interesting. Part of me agrees, in that maybe there are certain people who physically, mentally or emotionally limited in a way that makes them unqualified to achieve a rank of 'black belt.' But like so many things, that leads me to the next question--who decides? If one instructor's requisites are different from another's, what does that mean? There are two avenues of conclusion to arrive at: How I feel about myself, and how I see others. I know for a fact that when I do achieve my black belt that there will be others who studied longer, harder and learned more before achieving theirs, both in my art and others. Some would undoubtedly think that my black belt was 'cheap' or that I did not possess the skill or ability they think I need to qualify to wear a black belt. All I can do is treat the black belt as an honor granted me by my teacher, whose counsel I have learned to trust in such matters. But my skill and knowledge, what limited amounts I have, exist outside of that framework. I can only be content or not content with my own knowledge and progress. So what do I think of someone else who has a martial arts black belt? Nothing. It shows a rank granted by an instructor, but is not indicative of any level of competence or lack thereof. Even two black belts granted by the same instructor may not have the same meaning to them. I'm not even sure that they should. I don't think children should be prohibited from having black belts, and whether an instructor has a 'children's' program I don't think adds to or takes away from their achievements if they have worked hard. As they grow and mature, they hopefully will understand what it means or does not mean to them. That leads to a question of whether two brown belts, regardless of age, should be training with each other. That seems to be the next question. I think the answer to that is no. I think training partners should be determined by the goals of the lesson. There are obvious physical differences between disparate age groups, which sometimes are the point of the lesson but other times have no bearing whatsoever. I am fascinated with rank preoccupation. My goal when I started training was to achieve a level of 'black belt'. I look back on that now and think how silly that was. When and why did we become so wrapped up in uniformity and technicalities? Imagine a lawyer saying that, how ironic :) I know, how do we figure out who is qualified to instruct without a system of combat or a uniform concept of how qualified someone is? There must be an answer besides uniformity because we are so far beyond that, and we can't put it back in the box. I almost wish every instructor had a different, unknowable representation of 'black belts', like old green bandanas, or Hershey bars. Because in the end it's just this label. Jim McHie Student http://www.horizonmartialarts-wellness.com/ --__--__-- Message: 5 From: TeachingInChina@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 18:32:29 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Growing up with my rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wanted to comment on age and rank of the belt. I have written many times with problems concerning my training of Tae Kwon Do. At the moment I am a 6th gup green and tomorrow 4/5, I will test for 5th gup blue. It has taken me 2 years go grow up with the belt, and I can relate to some of the people on the list who say it is not the color of the belt, but the maturity of handling the skill at hand. My Grandmaster made me realize for the past week that I still have a lot of growing up to do despite the fact I am a green belt and 35. I did not understand what was meant by patience, endeavor, and seeking perfection of character until today. GM did not answer me for 1 week when I wanted his permission to take the rank test. I became impatient, angry, and sad. I finally started to realize that just because my rank is high, my training needs to be more extensive as long as my maturity level regarding my responsibility to my rank. I was granted permission to test today and now I know that the color does not really matter. What matters is the skill, patience, and maturity of the martial artist. Wish me luck everyone. Landa 6th gup green TKD --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 17:39:09 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Commercial Schools? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have often wondered about those who cut down martial arts schools that have many children students. There are many who think that the awarding of a black belt to a child is not right. Those children can not have the emotional stability of the rank. But I see things differently. I see us as giving the children another place to develop mentally, physically, and in some cases spiritually. The martial arts are another avenue of character development, provided of course that the school gives the students something to develop into. My classes are built around the concepts that I learned in Scouting. I build lessons into each and every class and provide each child the opportunity to develop into strong citizens. My children Black Belt students realize that they are not the same as the adults in maturity. However, my adults, and many like them do not wish to be given all the same lessons. They don't want to be lectured, so many of the adults leave the program. The ones that stay with the program with all that it entails are often those who went through such programs as children: Boy/Girl Scouts, Camp Fire Girls, Indian Guides, or other such programs. So tell me who makes the better citizen Black Belt the child who grows with the lessons you present (as long as you practice what you preach) or the adult who thinks your lessons are quaint ideals? --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 18:24:37 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Black Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In line with my last post, there are also people who believe that not just anybody should be a black belt. I agree that not everyone should be a black belt I just believe that everybody can become a black belt. The 1st Dan level is a basic level it doesn't mean much in the overall scheme of things. There are 8 more (some styles even more than that) levels to achieve. A first dan is the Kindergarten level. You learn the basics of the system and you are now just beginning to learn to use them properly. Why can't anyone earn the 1st Dan? Some instructors say that it MUST be difficult to get the level. I ask why 1st Dan must be so hard. I studied in a very strict system called Pang Gai Noon Ryu Karate-Do. Originally it only had 3 forms. The 1st Form, Sanchin, was practiced for 3 years before you were ever introduced to the next form. There are not a lot of movements in the system overall. The same goes for most styles. Why must we MAKE it so very DIFFICULT to reach 1st Dan? I believe the real struggle comes after 1st Dan. Why can't we make the true challenges come in the 1st to 2nd Dan Level? The only challenge for 1st Dan should be perseverance. Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 18:35:52 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: poom vs Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> The material for the Boy scouts was intended to make better citizens and eventually better soldiers. The source material in Orienteering, signaling, Astronomy, first aid, etc. It is all watered down soldering. But nobody expects the boy scouts to be the same as Rangers. But I'll want those Eagle Scouts by me any day of the Week. The main ingredient of the Eagle scout is Perseverance. They stick with the program. There is nothing overall in Boy Scouting that is HARD other than sticking with it. The same can be said for Black Belt. The Cub Scout that has earned the Arrow of Light (the highest award in cub scouting) is well on the way to a strong path of being a great citizen (no matter the country). The Child that has earned a black belt is also well on the way along the same path. A student at my school can not start the regular childrens program until 6. That mean if they truly dedicate themselves they might earn the Black Belt by age 10. If they struggle hard still they might earn a 2nd Dan/Poom by the time they are 13 (a sign of maturity in many cultures). With continued dedication they just might make it to 3rd Dan/Poom by the time they are 17. Now this is if they stay in our environment. If they do that by the time they are 17 I think they will truly be ready for that rank. Just as if they earned the 3rd Dan at 25. Our influence on these students must be accounted for. Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 9 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "Erik Hanson" Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 19:42:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Young Black Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chris -I couldn't agree with you more. While I am only a first Dan. It still irritates me to see something that I have trained for so long given away to children who don't even comprehend what their belt stands for. While the school I attend now has a junior black belt system in which an individual under a certain age trains as a junior black belt until they reach the predetermined age. Sorry I can't be more specific but I don't know the full extent of this system. Anyhow, I just wanted to put in this post saying that I agree with you whole heartedly.Erik Hanson1st Dan TKD Message: 9From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.netDate: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 14:51:32 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kramer in Karate ClassReply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.netMichael wrote,<<year olds getting their 1st degree. I felt very much like I was inkindergarten assembly, very uncomfortable, like Kramer on Seinfeld, in thekiddie karate class. When you put in the hard work and years of training andmaturing, you were proud to get the coveted black belt, now when they handthem out to children. "Wow, you have a black belt, so does my 6 year old".I steer away from letting my peers know of my dan ranking, its almostembarrassing.>>>Man, this post really struck a chord with me. I understand what you'resaying, and I believe one has to answer some very serious questions whenfaced with these types of dilemmas. Is this the type of trainingenvironment in which I want to immerse myself? Are there issues with theinstructor and school/art/organizati onal culture that run counter to myvision of what martial arts practice entails, and in answering theall-important question, "What is a black belt?". Warning: what I'm about tosay will piss some people off.I've never been involved with a "modern commercial martial arts school". Bythat term, I mean a school that has pretty much compromised quality andintegrity in order to fill the rosters by promoting anyone that "just showsup", and by offering glorified after school daycare programs filled withpre-teen brown and black belts. Now, that's my perception, but perhaps ithas some validity outside of this twisted gray matter that I call a brain.Having said that, I have been involved with schools that were commercial innature, had a healthy children's roster, and promoted teens and pre-teens toranks that did not compel me to hang my head in shame. Yes, the instructorwanted/needed to make a living, but he wasn't willing to cross a certainline in order to do it. The trick (IMHO) is in knowing where that line is,and to not go off of the deep end. If you have a policy of promotingpre-teens up to brown belt and holding them there (or having a junior blackbelt program) then I think this is an indicator that quality and integrityare still on the radar screen. If, on the other hand, you go to a schoolwhere it's not uncommon to see two second degree black belts trading Pokemoncards in the waiting area before class...well, I think the almighty dollarhas taken over, and the "serious" practitioner has to decide whether or notto move on to greener pastures.For me, children with black belt rank speaks to a larger issue within thepractice of martial arts. In short, the last few decades have seen a very"egalitarian" (for lack of a better vocabulary word) shift in the practiceand promulgation of the arts. The attitude in many corners has become oneof, "martial arts are for everybody...come on down!!!". I don't agree withthis premise. For example, few people would argue with me if I said,"playing organized, competitive football is not for everybody". Playingfootball (bench riding doesn't count) is an activity that requires a certainlevel of size, strength, speed, and aggression relative to the position onthe field. To say that these traits are not evenly distributed throughoutthe gene pool is a statement of fact, and one can safely say that in orderto make "playing football" accessible to a large portion of the population,one must redefine the game in some manner so as to change the very nature ofthe activity itself. Practicing "martial arts" per my personal definitionof the activity, would tend to have similar limiting factors.Before I'm accused of being a troglodyte that cannot see beyond the physicalaspects of martial arts and sports, let me use higher mathematics as anexample. Despite some educators' misty eyed mantra of, "anybody can learnanything" I've found that certain people just tend to think a littledifferently than the rest of the population. Hard core mathematicians are agood example. For whatever reason, they perceive, filter, assimilate,organize, and interpret the world in a slightly different fashion than youraverage Suzy Q. Homemaker. As such, they have an advantage over the rest ofus when it comes to the higher tools of math in terms of learning andpractical application. Desire and hard work go a long way, but I'm nevergoing to understand certain aspects of calculus and geometry. My head justdoesn't fit. And some people are never going to be (or moreaccurately...DESERVE to be) a black belt...per my personal definition ofthat entity. In fairness, there's a little play in there because everyoneis different...but pre-teens don't seem to have a seat at my particulartable.Now, martial arts is not THAT exclusive of a club compared to understandingdata encryption algorithms, and a good many people of all shapes, ages, andsizes can perform up to a level that is congruent with my personal view of"how it should be done". Now, the problem comes in when I say, "martialarts aren't for everyone" because that leaves it pretty wide open, and wecan start filtering along all sorts of criteria including age, gender,ability, etc. But the issue here is age, and I have some pretty strongopinions about that. Suffice it to say that they are just my opinions and Idon't care to proscribe normative ideals in regards to "what is martialarts?", and the definition of a "black belt". I don't have a concretenotion of "how things should be"...there are just certain things that don'tjive with my particular world view.One of my favorite training environments was when I was involved with a BJJtraining association run by a couple of Royce's purple belts. It wasabsolute heaven. The entire group was comprised of males running from lateteens to early forties, and not only did I feel that I was getting exactlywhat I was looking for in terms of adequate training partners, but onecannot appreciate the f raternal feelings that comes out of such anenvironment until one has been immersed in it. I have an easy time relatingto Bill the Air Force recruiter, Paul the ATF agent, and Corey the highschool wrestler. I have a hard time relating to Jimmy, the 11 year oldasthmatic brown belt who has somehow failed to learn a proper front stance,and who's only redeeming quality is the fact that his hottie Mom likes tostay and watch the class (yes, I'm a pig). Now, part of that is on mebecause I'm holding him to an ideal that I'm defining, and the fact that Ilike to train a certain way with certain types of people...there's nothingobjective about it. However, part of it is on the school/owner/teacherbecause in the movement to make the arts more inclusive (for eithercommercial or non-commercial reasons) we have redefined the very essence ofwhat we are doing. Martial arts (as I like to do it) is physically,mentally, and spiritually demanding. In order for a pre-teen to keep up, wehave either altered the essence of what constitutes "martial arts", or wehave discovered a very gifted young person. In my experience, when I seetraining environments full of children (particularly dan ranked children), Itend to also see programs that have become diluted, superficial, andirrelevant to the original source material. When I see trainingenvironments full of adults, I tend to also see programs that are demanding,substantial, and relevant vehicles toward achieving goals on differentphysical and mental levels. My experience...your mileage may vary, and thetruth is somewhere in between.But then again, as my wife is fond of reminding me...I don't know jack $h!t.FWIW.Craig "Children Should Be Seen...Not Ranked" Stovall --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest