Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 03:01:49 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #159 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Hackworth (Rudy Timmerman) 2. [Fwd: Re: [The_Dojang] To junior blackbelt or not (Jerry Nowaczyk) 3. Poom vs. Dan (rich hodder) 4. Re: Hackworth (Braeswood Martial Arts) 5. Poom vs. Dan (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 6. Children & Joint Locks (tntcombatives@attbi.com) 7. RE: Black belt vs. Poom (Michael Shawn) 8. ssirem (Chris Holmes) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 01:19:31 -0800 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hackworth Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all: I wanted to share with you an email I received today, and I publicly answer the mail to keep it on the up and up. I believe that list members should know that all black belts are not created equal. Sincerely, Rudy > Dear Sir: >   > You can imagine how excited I was to read in Dojang Digest about you > wishing it were like the old days when you could "Take Care of the > problem and get in some training at the same time". You feel that you > would like to teach me a lesson? I think that is a great idea. However > I would like to have it as a real "Match" between you and I. You could > represent whatever it is that you actually teach and I could represent > Hapkido. >   > I think that beating you in a public competitive fight would be an > easy way to get some cheap, shameless promotion. And since you seem to > like the idea fighting with me it should be a great deal for both of > us. >   > Would you like to select a date for such a match or should I expect > your prompt written apology? >   > Sincerely, > Richard Hackworth > Hackworth: you continue to amaze me with your lack of understanding the basic martial art principles that most students learn in their white belt classes. It seems that you have an uncontrollable need to show the martial art community just how incredibly small your mind is. Your suggestion to fight me is at least a step up from the sneak attacks you have launched on the livelihood of some of the folks who take issue with your bullying. If you think that your letter intimidates me, you are wrong, In the old days I mentioned, these issues was not settled in the ring, they were settled in some parking lot or back lane. These days, we are a bit more law abiding (until pushed too far), and all we can do is wish:) I was surprised that you would suggest a match, but then I realized that you must have found out that I have no job that you can take away, and my credentials as a martial artist will most assuredly survive any attempt you might make to tarnish it. I am sure that it is a great disappointment to you that you can't simply take away my job or rank like you did (or threatened to do) to others. In any case, I really don't need the color of a belt to attest to my knowledge of martial arts. Heck, I probably started training before you were born (and a sad day that was). It must have been a real brain teaser for you to figure out that fighting a senior citizen on worker's compensation was safe enough, given the length of time it took you to get around to this amusing offer. However, the lesson you so desperately need is in good manners (and a certain behavior that usually goes along with having earned a black belt), but I suspect that this is beyond the realm of possibility given the size of your mental capacity. As far as teaching you a lesson: Your claim of high rank in martial arts as well as a Ph.D. attests to the fact that teaching you anything is a complete waste of time. As far as an apology is concerned, I'll borrow the sentiment of the commander of the "battle of the bulge" (I am sure you are familiar with that one) "NUTS". Unless my schedule does not permit it, I'll likely be in Orlando again this year, and I usually go for an evening stroll in the parking lot if you know what I mean:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 01:57:45 -0800 From: Jerry Nowaczyk To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, Diana Nowaczyk Subject: [Fwd: Re: [The_Dojang] To junior blackbelt or not Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Charles, I don't like to think of a younger dan...someone who has met all of the requirements for dan rank...which (in WTSDA at least) requires a certain number of hours teaching in front of the class ... a dan who has the maturity to wear the belt and, because of their demeanor in class as well as their willingness to teach and learn, to be considered a "jr. black belt". I think it demeans the effort they put into training and testing for the belt they hold. The only difference in the test that Diana did for her belt at 9 and that a 26 year old Cho Dan Bo at 6 ft. and 190lbs. did was the size of the boards they broke. Diana's were 2 inches smaller because of her diminished size. I guess there ought to be a "women's" belt too then ... if the requirements for BB includes testosterone....you could have "Lady BB" Jr. BB., and then ...since we all know that korean bb are better than American Belts cause it's in their genes....we could have Meeguk and Hanguk BBs (Grin) carrying that theme ad nausium allowed me to get that out of my system because its something that has bothered me for quite a while. Jerry, I remember Diana and she was an excellent technician with an outstanding character. And I'm sure at 22 she'll make an outstanding Master. So maybe we need to move the title "Chief Instructor" from 3rd dan, and "Head Instructor" from 2nd dan, and just call 1st-3rd Dan's student dans and 4-6th Master Instructors... My logic for 18 at 3rd is that a 3rd dan is a parent (capable of promoting to 1st dan), so how can someone be capable of having children until they are an adult (just a thought)? My question for you and Diana is....If she had been told she had to wait 6 years to turn 18 to test to 3rd dan, would the first 6-7 years to get to 2nd dan have laid a good enough foundation or would she felt it unfair and quit martial arts? She was ready to wait the extra time if she had to ...in fact, up to the time that she was allowed to test, the age for testing to 3rd dan was 18... she was a "test case " and in fact her test for 3rd degree garnered a "best testing student" trophy for her as well. Obviously she was ready. (Grin) Put another way at 3rd dan at 16 did she, in WTSDA could she, conduct a blackbelt test as chief examiner, teach adult 1st gups and 1st dans....? She had taught adult and child students at age 9 and continued to teach classes under Master Coker very often. ...yes she sat boards for colored belts as a second and 3rd dan and was a regional tournament center ring judge at 16. She was allowed to conduct the BB test but not to sit the board. ( WTSDA requires the BB board to be comprised of Master rank and promotable 3rd dans) Realize that at 16 she had 10 1/2 years worth of training behind her. more thoughts? Making those rules "hard and fast" might just cause an otherwise good young martial artist to get discouraged. Especially when he/she sees adults that they taught go up for their belts and in fact, surpass their rank. When the only thing holding them back is their age. If they are ready...time in training...time in grade...knowlegable in Those required forms ..ho sin sul, breaking and are mature enough to carry the belt rank, age in and of itself is (IMHO) like gender...immaterial. Saying all this, you say that you are teaching your curriculium based on age rather than a hard and fast set of objectives. That scares me because following that sinerio your young dans will NOT be as capable as your older dans... they will not have the same training, nor will they have been required to demonstrate the same capabilities that their adult counterpart has. I guess that in that case a "jr.BB" would be in order. Remeber that I don't train as a martial artist...but both my kids are and I have been "sitting the bleachers" for about 16 years now. Jerry please feel free to carry this thread back to the list as others might benefit. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com --- Jerry Nowaczyk wrote: --------------------------------- Charles, I saw your post and thought i'd drop you a line.! Do you remember Diana Nowaczyk? My daughter tested for her 1st dan at 9,2nd dan at 12 and 3rd dan at 16 years old.. She has subsequently taken theregional cup every year for WTSDA. Every kid won't be ready..but Diana was...atthat rank I would think you have judge each case on its own merits. ButDiana did everything any other black belt or advanced black belt candidatewould do both in training in the dojang and at the tests. Jerry Nowaczyk -- __--__-- Message: 1Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 14:21:38 -0800 (PST)From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.netSubject: [The_Dojang] To junior blackbelt or not?Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net<>So, getting back to the point. How do you guys handle a situation likeminewhere you don't really believe in kid's being Black Belts till about the ageof 13 but yet you have a 10 year, who will turn 11 in August, who has workedhis butt off and did very well all the way up to 1st Gup? If he tests for1st Dan at the end of this year and passes would you grant him a "Jr. BlackBelt" and then retest him for regular BB at 13 yrs old? The ONLY thingthatdiffers in my 1st Dan requirements is the breaking part. That's it. He's agreat kid and very mature for his age. This is definitely a new one for me.Master Hodder, when you come up here to WV in a couple weeks, you will meetthis young man and maybe you can give me your insight to it as well.<>Dear James,We approach youth training very similar. Originally I was veryoppossed to a poom or junior blackbelt status. Of course I agree theaverage 9 year old is way to immature for blackbelt status, but othersdiffer. In my student manual I intentionally left out an agerequirement for 1st and 2nd dan (3rd dan chief instructor must be 18).I said I was going to teach everyone the same, etc.....now for reality. When we moved to the retail space we went to age specific classes5-8,8-12 and 13+. Now my 8-12 year olds do about half my hoshinsul,and very little specific pressure point discussion, and my 5-8 year olddo very little of either, so now that I have green belts of all ages, Imust admit their is a different standard. Your post gets me thinking and on first blush I'm leaning towards nominimum age for 1st Dan, but a minimum age of 13 for 2nd Dan and 18 for3rd Dan.Yours in Jung Do,Charles Richardswww.mojakwan.com__________________________________________________Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and morehttp://tax.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "rich hodder" To: "Dojang Digest" Cc: "rich" Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 07:13:57 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Poom vs. Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Morgan, I will be very happy to see your student test, knowing you I am certain that he will do a fantastic job. As far as the poom vs. Dan thing goes, I have a fairly interesting solution. I don't start students until they are about 7 years old unless Mom, Dad or sibling are in class with them. It takes 5 years to get to the point that anyone can test for poom/Dan level. That would be a minimum of 12 years old. If they have been in my school for 5 years and they are 12 years old and I don't have them ready to hold that rank, then I have done them a mis-service. I just recently promoted a young lady that has been with me for 7 years to 1st poom. She is 13 and I am very proud of her. She was never belt hungry and skipped many testing opportunites. Very refreshing in this age of "I gotta have it now!!!!" I know that many of the folks on this list will disagree with the amount of time I have chosen to take to advance students, but I believe that it takes that much time to start to become natural with the techniques and that much time to understand the philosophical underpinnings of the art. Besides, it is my school and I make the rules. 8^) have fun, Rich HodderGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hackworth Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 09:36:39 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net WOW!!! Some people really have a lot of guts when they are only talking to a computer's face. I may have to take a stroll in Orlando that night myself, just to see :) Kat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rudy Timmerman" To: Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 3:19 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Hackworth > Hello all: > I wanted to share with you an email I received today, and I publicly > answer the mail to keep it on the up and up. I believe that list > members should know that all black belts are not created equal. > Sincerely, Rudy > > > Dear Sir: > > > > You can imagine how excited I was to read in Dojang Digest about you > > wishing it were like the old days when you could "Take Care of the > > problem and get in some training at the same time". You feel that you > > would like to teach me a lesson? I think that is a great idea. However > > I would like to have it as a real "Match" between you and I. You could > > represent whatever it is that you actually teach and I could represent > > Hapkido. > > > > I think that beating you in a public competitive fight would be an > > easy way to get some cheap, shameless promotion. And since you seem to > > like the idea fighting with me it should be a great deal for both of > > us. > > > > Would you like to select a date for such a match or should I expect > > your prompt written apology? > > > > Sincerely, > > Richard Hackworth > > > > Hackworth: you continue to amaze me with your lack of understanding > the basic martial art principles that most students learn in their > white belt classes. It seems that you have an uncontrollable need to > show the martial art community just how incredibly small your mind is. > Your suggestion to fight me is at least a step up from the sneak > attacks you have launched on the livelihood of some of the folks who > take issue with your bullying. If you think that your letter > intimidates me, you are wrong, In the old days I mentioned, these > issues was not settled in the ring, they were settled in some parking > lot or back lane. These days, we are a bit more law abiding (until > pushed too far), and all we can do is wish:) > > I was surprised that you would suggest a match, but then I realized > that you must have found out that I have no job that you can take away, > and my credentials as a martial artist will most assuredly survive any > attempt you might make to tarnish it. I am sure that it is a great > disappointment to you that you can't simply take away my job or rank > like you did (or threatened to do) to others. In any case, I really > don't need the color of a belt to attest to my knowledge of martial > arts. Heck, I probably started training before you were born (and a > sad day that was). > > It must have been a real brain teaser for you to figure out that > fighting a senior citizen on worker's compensation was safe enough, > given the length of time it took you to get around to this amusing > offer. However, the lesson you so desperately need is in good manners > (and a certain behavior that usually goes along with having earned a > black belt), but I suspect that this is beyond the realm of possibility > given the size of your mental capacity. As far as teaching you a > lesson: Your claim of high rank in martial arts as well as a Ph.D. > attests to the fact that teaching you anything is a complete waste of > time. As far as an apology is concerned, I'll borrow the sentiment of > the commander of the "battle of the bulge" (I am sure you are familiar > with that one) "NUTS". > > Unless my schedule does not permit it, I'll likely be in Orlando again > this year, and I usually go for an evening stroll in the parking lot if > you know what I mean:) > Sincerely, Rudy > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 12:22:41 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Poom vs. Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Although we are a hapkido dojang, we use the poom system for the children as taekwondo did do a good job on developing this method. Although we have not added the recent 4th poom as taekwondo did. I changed the below to reflect our method. Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com TIME AND AGE LIMITS Poom/Dan Minimum Time Age Limits for Promotion Required for Promotion Start from Dan Start from Poom 1st Poom NA NA Less than 15 Years Old 1st to 2nd Pom 2 year NA Less than 15 Years Old 2nd to 3rd Poom 3 years NA Less than 15 Years Old 1st Dan NA 16 years and above NA --__--__-- Message: 6 From: tntcombatives@attbi.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 18:07:53 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Children & Joint Locks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings All, For adults, I have solid color rank belts. For children, I have added a 1/2 rank in between each of the solid colors. (white belt--yellow/white belt-- yellow belt--green/white belt--green belt etc.) My younger students do not learn many of the finishing holds that require joint manipulation. I utilize a stepped approach to the self defense curriculum. There are 3 levels & responses to each attack. A, B, & C. The A moves are just the release from the hold. The B set includes the release, a counter attack, and movement of either the attacker or defender out of the immediate danger zone. The C set includes the release, counter attack, takedown/throw, and a finishing joint lock. The children learn A & B only for their rank. During white belt for example, they learn 1 thru 4, A & B. When they promote to the Yellow/White belt, they learn 5 thru 8, A & B. In Yellow/White they also learn the C defenses for 1 thru 4, but do them without the finishing joint lock. I have had great success using this method. Kids get to learn basic defense against a variety of attacks, and as they learn, they add takedowns/sweeps/throws to the A & B defenses they have been practicing for a while from their previous rank. If there is a joint lock they need to learn, they are only allowed to do it at 1/2 speed. -- Mark Gajdostik TNT-Police Combatives 503-789-1356 --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Michael Shawn" To: Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 00:47:37 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Black belt vs. Poom Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Melinda, It was nice to read your post, because it made alot of sense. At my school I did notice when the certificates came in after the black belt tests, that the children did not have 1st dans but 1st Poom certificates. Our school is a major tournament competitor so that would explain alot. best, MS --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 20:59:59 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] ssirem Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey folks, This is a good link for ssirem, it is in Korea. http://ynucc.yeungnam.ac.kr/~ssi/eindex.html Thanks Chris Holmes _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest