Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 07:21:03 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #166 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:__When_the_rubber_meets_the_road?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 2. Jere's Questions about Instructors and training (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 3. Thanks (A. Boyd) 4. Training for fight performance (tntcombatives@attbi.com) 5. Re: Existential crisis... (Eric Walker) 6. No offence taken, Ken McD (A. Boyd) 7. Bravo Mr. Stovall (Patrick L) 8. Kids and health (Burdick, Dakin R) 9. Fights vs. Combat article (ABurrese@aol.com) 10. Re:Hapkido and fighting (Eric Walker) 11. Dakin's Kids (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:33:59 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:__When_the_rubber_meets_the_road?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ken: ".....My point was that there is a martial artist who preaches trying to avoid a situation. Then if your not permitted to retreat, strike first, fast, and get out. Worry about court and other legalities later when you have safely taken the appropriate action......." I think I know what you are working to convey and for the most part I tend to agree with you. I would also encourage folks to consider the risks as not all fights are created equal. At the movies a fight always entail clear motives, and the good guys are clearly discerned from the bad guys. After the fight is over the story moves on to the next part of the story. Neat, clean and entertaining. In most martial art schools conflict is characterized very much the same way--- black and white. Fights I am familiar with are never that way. The motives for the conflict may be injury, -- real or imagined --- displaced anger or aggression, free- floating anxiety, competition and so on. Add to that the possibility of compromised thinking (drinking or drugging; rage; mental handicaps), the availability of weapons-of-opportunity, and spontaneous participation (or apathy) of individuals in the immediate area for motive known only to themselves. After the fight there may be intervention by law enforcement and the legal system and that can be followed by civil actions to collect on damage and injury. Its a murky mess of grey shades that can come on quick and hang around like a stink for a long time. Now I listed all of these variables to say the following. Somebody who has much to lose like a house, job, family and good health is going to be retiscent to put all of what he has at risk and allow themselves to be sucked into that morrass of variables without a damn good reason. For example, Rudys' recent "invitation" from Hackworth was a great example where Rudy has a whole lot to lose and nothing to gain while Hackworth has everything to gain and really nothing to lose. In like manner, if I go out for beer and pizza I am not about to put everything at risk in my life for some over-served, state-supported dirtbag with a big mouth and severe inadequacy issues. Problem is, Mr, Dirtbag knows it. He knows I have everything to lose and he has everything to gain. He antagonizes and plays up my retiscence as cowadice, or incompetence, or weakness--- whatever. Even if he DOES something that allows for me to respond, after the smoke clears the number of stories that come out to authorities will have more versions than ROMEO AND JULIET. Back in the Bad Ol' Days when men were men and women wore corsets, a guy paid his own debts and stood by his actions. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that now and even with a S***load of MA training a person has to be damn careful about losing everything they hold dear to a scumball with a trick back. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:43:19 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jere's Questions about Instructors and training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere, Actually in our organization, World Tang Soo Do Association, dans can choose whether they want to become a teacher or not and there is an instructor training program that begins as early as chodan for those that do. Full instructors would be at least samdan, with a minimum of 8.5 years training and an adult, and would be under the supervision of a Master. There are also age requirements for full instructor certification and we are in the process of developing a more stringent training and certification program. The program begins with chodans leading a class under the direct supervision of senior instructors. A lot of instructors I know begin to let senior gups lead certain parts of classes ocasionally or show junior students how to do specific things, such as a technique or a form from time to time because it helps the students to develop themselves and better understand what they do. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:16:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Thanks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks for the support everyone! ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 4 From: tntcombatives@attbi.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:19:55 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Training for fight performance Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings All, The question of whether training will work in a real world situation has been an ongoing argument for a long time. Some arts will say that simply practicing forms will allow one to perform, and others that forms suck and that going out and being a thug is the superior option. The question that many have is that what they are doing is worth it. Like was mentioned in the last digest, you will default to your skills rather than rise to the occasion. What skills? Those that you have trained in or actually used in a high risk encounter. I can teach you to swim by giving you the correct techniques and theory, but if you never get into the water you will not know for sure whether the theory and techniques work. Sure, Master soenso says they will, but only you can determine their effectiveness and gain confidence from that knowledge. I have had the same worries, and I'm sure many of us will continue to question our true abilities. Like has already been said, nothing is like doing the real thing in a real situation. I highly suggest scenario training (aka: full contact randori w/a twist). This is nothing new. The armed forces and law enforcement groups have been training this way for a long time, and there are as many ways to do it as your imagination allows. No time-outs or do-overs for screwed up techniques, you go with the flow. It is easy... gear up, make some safety ground rules in case of injury or to prevent certain injuries, and simply re-create the 'Big Ken' bar scenario with some training buddies. Use real language and real intensity (aliveness...excellent term). The badguys/aggressors need to be able to act well both for proper atmosphere and for proper reactions to impacts or holds etc. I always suggest instructors play the threats to get students used to the concept, and slowly train new threats (students) for the role. Start easy and work your way up in aggressive action, intensity, and consequence of failure. With gear on, some stuff simply wont work (like finger locks to a gloved hand etc.) No worries, there are plenty of things that will work. Blend in proper responses to different levels of attack...eg: a chest push used for mild intimidation vs. a chest push meant to put you out into traffic. The physical response can be anything from evasion to domination. Your choice. Research your area laws concerning use of physical force in self defense. Video tape everything to enhance the learning experience. Keep in mind that it is not that martial arts don't work, it is that YOUR martial arts don't work. The techniques taught in HKD, JJ, TKD, Judo, or whatever, are valid and have excellent potential. It is up to you to discover how they will work for you. Sparring and drills will only take you so far and are good experience, but as we are not bullies, thugs, or criminals, we cannot simply go out and pick fights to hone our skills. The closest thing is creating scenarios that will benefit and test our ablities. By the way, if you are in the Portland Oregon area, I teach a legal use of force class designed for martial artists. I work cheap and will travel:-) -- Mark Gajdostik PS-Visit my humble websites for some great pics of scenario training. It is work in progress, so please, no hate mail! http://members.aol.com/TNTcombatives/police.html http://members.aol.com/TNTmartialarts/main.html --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:18:54 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Existential crisis... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have been having somewhat of an existential crisis with hapkido lately that > I am hoping the kind folks on this list can shed some light on. To give you > some background I have a 1st dan, I have been at it for about six and a half > years. I have never been in a fight, I don't expect that I ever will be in a > fight as I don't let my pride rule my actions and I'm a really fast runner. > It's just not likely. > > In the last three or four years I have become confident that I could defend > myself if the need be. I believe I have good balance and technique as well as > fast and powerful strikes and kicks. At the same time there has been an > insecurity growing inside me. Some how all the training still feels > preliminary, like I'm getting ready to train for real. Yes, we do realistic > drills, I am forced to improvise, and what not. > > This insecurity led me to start taking judo recently. In judo, when you go out > on the mat to practice, you are really doing judo. Because there are no real > dangerous moves such as joint locks or strikes, there is no difference between > your opponent on the mat and your opponent on the street. This is making me > reevaluate hapkido. > > I feel like in hapkido, we practice swinging the bat, we practice hitting the > ball, we practice running, catching, throwing, and even sliding into bases. > When were all done training we assume that we can play baseball well, but we > never play the game itself, because we can't. > > Since I started taking judo, I don't feel as confident in my ability to defend > myself anymore, I have come to doubt my ability to pull this stuff off, > because I have never actually done it. Hapkido is still one of the most > important things in my life, but there is something missing that it doesn't > provide. > > I was wondering if these feelings of mine are par for the course or somewhat > unique. Have you guys experienced this as well. What became of it? > > Jeremy Callner > (there is more than one Jeremy on the list, don't mix us up) Jeremy, First of all let me say that you out rank me just a little, I'm testing for 1st Gup in about three weeks, having said that I have been training about six years in hapkido. I have been feeling that I'm actually begining to really learn the potential of hapkido technique. Master Toth has a lot of MA background, and we actually use some of the judo throws. I would remind you to that judo is the "gentle way" or a sport style that is not intended to injure but to score points. I don't mean to denigrate judo in any way, it can be made to be crippling with very little modification. My understanding of judo, is that it was extracted from Jiu Jitsu and modified so that you can go full power in training with a partner with out doing real damage. May I suggest that you may have come to a point in your training in which your instructor may not be able to offer you much more? I don't know who your instructor is, but it's possible. I know there is a lot of "my art is better than yours" going on in the MA world, but I am continually surprised by the diversity, and power of technique in hapkido. I find it to be most effective. I've not been in a fight since I've been training, but I did have to grab a guy in a bar once. It's kind of a boring story, but he was shooting off his mouth, I guess he didn't like the way I look. I had just started getting around again after ACL replacement and was wearing my knee-brace. He was making some stupid remarks about me, my mother, my sisters you name it. I didn't feel threatened really, so I was trying to steer the conversation a little, he was well into his cups, plus pretty big too. I tried talking about having the ACL surgery, blah, blah, blah, and something about martial arts...."HA! MARTIAL ARTS....I bet you $1000 I could kick your ass..." and nonsense like that. Well I looked away slightly and he shouts "HEY!" I turn back and he throws an elbow at me. Well before I even realized it I was under his arms and throwing a collar choke on him, and had him tipping backwards in the his stool. He was so limp that I immediately realized that we wasn't trying to fight, just to scare me. Maybe make me fall off my stool...well I let his bar stool down onto the feet again and backed off three steps or so. He talked his BS some more, and I got out of there. He never got off his stool though after that, didn't try anything else. That was the first time I really knew that what I was training was real. My body just did what I needed it to do. Everything around me was so slowed down that I even had time to evaluate his threat level, and avoid perhaps really hurting some stupid redneck, and maybe getting myself into real trouble. My 190lbs riding his 300 to the ground with the back of his neck could have been really bad. Like hitting some one in the neck with a 500 lb sledge hammer! Anyhow, I'm sorry about the rambling. I guess I'm saying sometimes in class it might be tough to practice some of the hapkido techniques, but they are real self defense, and in my limited opinion perhaps the best. Cheers and keep up the good work. Eric Walker --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:40:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] No offence taken, Ken McD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ken, Sorry if the details I used about your bar fight experience were inaccurate, but I only had my memory of your account of the fight to go from. In it, did you not mention three separate verbal exchanges with the pool-playing goon, two before and one after your friend arrived? From my point of view when reading the post, that seemed like a lot. I only used it as an example because of what the story made *me* think not because of what *you* may have done. I think that's an important distinction and one which I thought was clear in the post. If I had wanted to comment on your fight itself, I would have done so at the time. As I agreed with your primary point that self-defense classes which do not train for the sorts of encounters a person might actually face and do not drill realistically to deal with them are dangerous, I had nothing new to add to that discussion and no time to waste on a "me too" post. Anyway, no offence taken from your reply and certainly there was none meant in my post. If you want to discuss the situation further feel free to e-mail me directly. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:59:56 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bravo Mr. Stovall Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mr. Stovall, Well reasoned and written response to the question of efficacy of Hapkido. I have saved it, and will reread it a few times in an effort to more fully understand all your points. I just want to add two things... 1) Judo is more than a resistant partner - it is a similiarly trained resistant partner. If the original poster's question of Hapkido efficacy is based on the difficulty of acheiving clean Judo technique in randori, then we are comparing apples and oranges. 2) I love, respect, and admire Judo, and have many friends in the art, but they don't like it when I Hapkido them :) Just as I don't like getting Judo'ed :) Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:31:00 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Kids and health Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Charles Richards wrote: "None of my kids break with their knuckles, but I would thinks Palm strikes (hard and soft style), properly formed knife hands, hammer fists, and kicks that strike with the heel (axe, side thrust, MDK Hook) would be OK if the board is weight appropriate. Any comments from the list?" These sound like the safest areas to me, except perhaps for the hook and the axe. The hook can be just plain painful, and the axe kick just reminds me of a time that I watched a board-holder's hand get broken by one. It is a powerful kick but often people don't have the best aim with it! As for sources, no, I really don't have any I can lay my hands on. My instructors were not big on breaking (they had done a lot of it years before and didn't see the point) and I just picked up some tidbits here and there. About the only decent books on medical aspects of the arts that I have seen are "Medical Aspects of Boxing" (a few years old now) and Ernst Jokl's works back in the 1940s and 1950s. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:41:59 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Fights vs. Combat article Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If you didn't see my column in Black Belt magazine last month, it is now at my web site. Also there is the letter that was printed in Black Belt, saying Marc MacYoung doesn't know much about real fights, that prompted my writing that piece. http://www.burrese.com/Articles/Hapkido_self_defense_martial_arts/Fights_vs_Com bat_in_Blackbelt.html Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:03:40 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Hapkido and fighting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....Jeremy, I hope this helps because you're at an important juncture as a martial artist. At least feel comfortable in the fact that a good many will never have this same epiphany, or (more unfortunately) suppress it because of the painful questions it demands answers for. Asking the question is a big step. Craig Stovall" Nice post Mr Stovall. You are succinct, often eloquent and always fun to read. I like the Aliveness training concept it's new, at least in name to me. We often try to use "alive" or "real-life" scenarios when training. I think your post speaks to Mr. McD's post in the same issue (maybe unitentionally), in that many instructors in the MA world don't teach in this manner. I think you've hit the nail on the head (I can't speak for Jeremy) but I sometimes see students that become wayward when their expectations exceed the abilities of their instructors. I guess the belt-mill type places cause this alot. I've seen them come in and talk about being a black belt 1st dan with such and such school then when a yellow or green belt at our school embarasses them sparring or grappling they usually don't come back. I think that's too bad, since they are seemingly looking for something better than what they started with. It's never intentional embarassment, we don't operate that way, but it turns out like that. I'm certainly not implying that Jeremy is in this boat but I wonder... I also wonder about you Mr Stovall, are you an instructor, master instructor, student? I understand that many on this BB aren't interested spreading their rank around, but you sound very knowledgable and I wonder if you have any writing published? Martial Arts or other topics. I love to read. Eric "I've never owned a TV" Walker To Mr. McD-- I have to agree with you on this issue. I've so far stayed out of the thread over the bar scrap, but I think we've got a problem in our country. So far it seems to be somewhat minor, but it's still there. People are being taught that fighting is unacceptable. Look at the invective being hurled at the president by the radical left right now, even as we uncover the horrors of the Stalinist bunch in Baghdad. We've heard it over and over, "war is not the answer, fighting is not the way to go, diplomacy is better, talking it over is the better way..." personally I find it revolting that there are people out there that could think of nothing worth fighting for. I can think of many things that are worth the fight. Freedom, my family and friends, community, my right to stand up and speak my mind, my right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Yours too. I believe that if you let the thugs and criminals push you around then the secret police are probably just around the corner. Of course they will be there to "protect" you. Have a look at Fred Reed's website (http://www.fredoneverything.net/), particularly his police beat column, and you get the picture I'm describing. The slums of any city show you what happens when people let the scumbags control things. Your far from a barbarian or jerk and I don't have to tell you that. I would do no less in your situation. Perhaps the *holes will get the message. Eric Walker --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:18:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dakin's Kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dakin, This type situation is a hard nut to crack, especially in this day and time of serious over reaction, especially school systems, to minor physical altercations. I would expect that the situation could get wound up really fast, with your student using controling hold. Lots of people wouldn't be able to distinguish between that and a choke. I have had 3 parents come in with their kids, my students in the last few months talking about problems with bullies. In one case a group is harassing one of my students in Junior High. Have done it in front of teachers and school workers and even in front of studnets parents. Tended not to be overtly physical but tripped or hit him when they got the chance and he was unable to react such as running opposite way in crowded hallway. Even caught him sufficient to bust a lip once. Parents complained to principal and were told he would be expelled if he fought back or tried to physically protect himself. They asked him what their son was supposed to do to defend himself, and the principal said "Just block the attacker's punches until a teacher got there." After this, they came to me. I told them and my student that this was likely to continue as long as they were getting a reaction. Suggested he do a little taunting of his own. I also told them he has a right to defend himself from being struck, and that if he fights back, they may well have to defend their son's right to defend himself at achool. They were shocked, but understood. I told the student the next time one of the kids tried to hit him or grab him to tee off a good solid strike as hard as he could. I also told them I felt sure that it probably wouldn't be reported if my student did hit another kid. Result, all the problems ceased within 3 weeks. This had been going on for months. The other situations were likewise resolved. All involved bullies. Just the typical schoolyard stuff that gets people hurt if not resolved by before late teens or twenties. Dakin, I don't feel comfortable telling my students to try to do something that I have not taught them. But I also teach a lot more than kicking and punching. Joint locks and trips work well, but generally not for kids under 13 or so. A lot of times younger kids scuffles are just that, with a lot of pushing. Your student should have a real advantage if he understands stances and stability, and leverage. Be interesting to see what others have to add. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustutkd1@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest